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Why did Nature run Pielke's pointless, misleading, embarrassing nonsense?

Posted by Joseph Romm (Guest Contributor) at 12:33 PM on 02 Apr 2008

The usually thoughtful journal Nature has just published a pointless and misleading -- if not outright dangerous -- commentary by delayer-1000 du jour, Roger Pielke, Jr., along with Christopher Green, who, as we've seen, is another aspiring delayer.

It will be no surprise to learn the central point of their essay, ironically titled "Dangerous Assumptions" (available here [PDF] or here, with a subscription), is: "Enormous advances in energy technology will be needed to stabilize atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations at acceptable levels." This is otherwise known as the technology trap or the standard "Technology, technology, blah, blah, blah" delayer message developed by Frank Luntz and perfected by Bush/Lomborg/Gingrich.

The Pielke et al. analysis is certainly confusing, which is not surprising given that the subject matter is arcane: the appropriate baseline for emissions scenarios in climate models used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. What is surprising is that Nature would run a piece that comes to a conclusion not only at odds with its own analysis, but a complete reversal from the conclusion of standard delayer analyses just a few years ago:

Five years ago the American Enterprise Institute "proved" that the lowest IPCC emissions projection is too high, and they backed up their conclusion with actual 1990s data, whereas Pielke, Wigley, and Green have "proven" that the highest IPCC emissions projection is too low, and they backed up their conclusion with actual data from this decade.

Hard to believe, but true. And they say you can't make this stuff up. Well, maybe you can't. But the delayers can.

This piece is an embarrassment to Nature's reputation as a leader on climate issues, and it suggest that the editors (and reviewers) didn't actually understand what they were reading.

In this post I will endeavor to explain what's so incredibly pointless about the piece, flawed about the analysis, embarrassing and misguided about the conclusion. Regular readers of this blog know why the technology trap is dangerous (it leads to delay, which is fatal to the planet's livability). This can't be done briefly. You should probably read my recent posts "Is 450 ppm (or less) politically possible?" and, possibly, "The adaptation trap 2: The not-so-honest-broker" first. Oh, and you should actually read the article. Come on, you know you are hot for this baseline analysis stuff. Trust me, you won't believe what these guys try to get away with.

Pointless piece

Actually, it is pretty easy to explain why the piece is pointless, much easier than, say, explaining why Nature published it. First, the authors never bother to explain what greenhouse gas (GHG) concentration target they believe is needed to avoid dangerous warming. We are many years past the time anybody needs to read another essay on why stabilizing atmospheric GHG concentrations is really, really, really hard -- with no discussion whatsoever of 1) why failing to stabilize well below, say, 700 parts per million of CO2 ppm is really, really, really suicidal and 2) what is in fact an appropriate target and how do we get there. So what is the point of the piece? To convince people the situation is hopeless? [Nature actually runs a side piece on the commentary titled, "Are the IPCC scenarios 'unachievable'? ($ubs. req'd) -- and people call me an alarmist!]

Second, what's "new" about the piece, at least in the authors' minds, is that "the size of this technology challenge has been seriously underestimated by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, diverting attention from policies that could directly stimulate technological innovation." But the first half of this sentence, to the extent it's true, is well known by every energy and technology modeling expert I know. I myself blogged on this very point two days ago in the 450 ppm post. This is a tough friggin' problem, and the IPCC is a body that inherently understates things. Alert the media! No, seriously, alert the media, because they don't seem to know the IPCC understates things.

Third, the authors never bother to explain why the clause I put in boldface is true, probably because they know it isn't. The IPCC's recent report, though an understatement of the climate problem certainly does NOT divert attention from the policies needed to avoid castrophe. This clause by itself is an embarrassment to Nature (and nature, for that matter) -- the IPCC authors are literally begging for action, far more genuine action than Pielke et al advocate (see here and here)! Indeed, Pielke et al. seem to be begging for inaction, but I digress. If the clause were true and if Pielke et al. did explain why, the piece might have a useful point to make. But, as we've seen and we'll see again, this is characteristic of Pielke's work -- he doesn't define terms specifically enough to make policy-relevant conclusions. "Innovation" can potentially encompass aspects of both R&D and deployment (see below). Since this paper doesn't define the word "innovation," it is very hard to tell what precisely the authors' point is (other than to lead us into the technology trap).

Misleading analysis

So what does the article say? The article focuses on the nearly three dozen (!) reference scenarios of future GHG emissions that the IPCC uses. These reference scenarios imagine very different worlds, with varying degrees of economic and population growth, energy technology, fossil fuel use, and sustainability efforts. [Note: This is probably one of the dumbest things the IPCC ever did -- it confuses the heck out of everybody, and I myself have to go to a reference book every time I see someone modeling a different scenario, like A2 or B1 or A1F1 -- yes, A1F1.]

Let me also repeat their definition of a key term:

Decarbonization of the global energy system depends mainly on reductions in energy intensity and carbon intensity. These result from technological changes that improve energy efficency and/or replace carbon-emitting systems with ones that have lower (or no) net emissions.

[Actually, most people I know separate "energy efficiency" (achieving the same energy services using less energy) from "decarbonization" (using fuels that generate less carbon per unit of energy provided), but that is a small point, and, in fact, Pielke et al. mostly treat them separately.]

The central analytical finding of the article:

Here we show that two thirds or more of all the energy efficiency improvements and decarbonization of energy supply required to stabilize greenhouse gases is already built into the IPCC reference scenarios. This is because the scenarios assume a certain amount of spontaneous technological change and related decarbonization. Thus, the IPCC implicitly assumes that the bulk of the challenge of reducing future emissions will occur in the absence of climate policies. We believe that these assumptions are optimistic at best and unachievable at worst, potentially seriously underestimating the scale of the technological challenge associated with stabilizing greenhouse-gas concentrations.

Sounds serious. The authors certainly "believe" what they are saying. But just how true is it? A major problem with this analysis is that the baseline Pielke et al use to reach this finding is

a 'frozen technology' baseline, which assumes that future energy needs are met with the technologies available in some baseline year (the technologies are 'frozen' in time).

Well, that seems odd. Technology isn't "frozen" in the real world. Energy intensity tends to improve (decrease) over time, certainly it did over the last century, and, so did carbon intensity. The key word in that last sentence is "did."

The authors rightly point out, as many people have, that since 2000, both energy intensity and carbon intensity have been increasing, slightly, with annual increases below 0.5 percent a year. This is such an unusual occurence that not a single one of the IPCC scenarios had even considered it, as their figure shows:

pielke-big.jpg

Implied rates of carbon- and energy-intensity decline from the 2000 Special Report on Emission Scenarios, showing six illustrative scenarios. The red marker indicates actual observations (2000 -- 2005) based on global economic growth calculated using market exchange rates.

But, of course, this begs the question -- Are the last few years anomalous or have they become the new norm? The authors believe they know the answer, but, of course, they can't prove it. They spend a couple of paragraphs arguing that this is a fundamental shift, because of rapidly developing countries, like China. But, in fact, right now much if not most of the recarbonization is China's abandonment of its two-decade long marriage to energy efficiency for a torrid love affair with coal, an affair that is literally breathtaking.

For two decades prior to 2000, China had an aggressive energy efficiency strategy and worked hard to avoid inefficient coal use, as I discussed here. Then they stopped. They are trying, admittedly not bloody hard, to go back to efficiency. But they could if they wanted to and it would save them lots of money irrespective of climate concerns. So I'm just not sure you can just put up a graph of the last few years and say that means all the IPCC models are potentially "unachievable." Like the "stabilization wedges" analysis from Princeton that I discussed a few days ago, this analysis suffers because it doesn't know what the actual baseline for future energy and emissions growth is (and, of course, that's why the IPCC has 35 models, to cover lots of different future scenarios).

You can certainly conclude the IPCC models will seriously underestimate emissions growth this decade. Many of us have been saying that for a while. The natural reaction to that would be to argue for more aggressive deployment of energy efficient and low-carbon technology starting immediately. After all, technology advances didn't stop in 2000 (if anything, they accelerated) -- a few countries just stopped adopting them at the normal pace in a frenzy of inefficient and polluting growth.

Well, that would be the natural reaction -- if you actually believed the rest of the IPPC report (as Pielke claims to), and especially if you believed the rest of the IPCC report similarly understated the climate threat we face, as I and others have argued. But to come to that reaction you'd have to understand and/or explain why we must stabilize below 450 ppm and stay far, far away from 800 ppm to 1000 ppm. You'd have to say what you believe is an appropriate target and how we get there.

Absent that, your discussion is going to be simultaneously unoriginal and misleading -- and your conclusion may end up being embarrassing (to yourself, that is) and dangerous (to the world, that is, if anybody actually listened to you, which they might if you were published in a prestigious journal).

Embarrassing conclusion

For years, people like Pielke (I call them delayers, you can call them climate destroyers, or, if you like, "people who are very wrong") have been arguing that the IPCC's emissions models were too pessimistic. That's right, the climate deniers/delayers/destroyers have been saying that the IPCC was scaring people into unnecessary action by assuming emissions growth was higher than in fact it was.

Yes, I know, if you actually read the Pielke et al piece, that seems hard to believe. They never bother pointing this out. But after a mere 10 seconds on Google, I found a classic example, an essay from the conservative (read denier/delayer/destroyer) American Enterprise Institute titled ... wait for it ... "New Doubts about the Dominant Climate Change Models." Oh it gets better. The April 2003 analysis finds (italics in original):

Meanwhile, an Australian statistician and a British economist have blown a huge hole in the methodology by which the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has made its long-term estimates of man-made carbon dioxide emissions for the twenty-first century. If this critique is correct, the IPCC has vastly overestimated the amount of man-made CO2 emissions and will need to remake its climate change models.

Yes. You read it right. A statistician and economist have debunked the IPCC models, proving that they "vastly overestimated" future CO2 emissions. What is it about papers published in April that makes people so foolish? Just to be crystal clear, the paper found ...

Castles and Henderson argue that the IPCC economic forecasts are based on fundamentally flawed economic assumptions that generate huge overestimates of future CO2 emissions ... The mean IPCC projection for the 1990s was that worldwide CO2 emissions would increase by about 15 percent. In fact, worldwide CO2 emissions grew by only about 6 percent according to the U.S. Department of Energy. Even the lowest of the IPCC's emissions projections is probably too high, which means that the projections of global warming may be too high as well.

You just can't make this stuff up! Well, you and I can't, but the delayers apparently can. To sum up:

Five years ago the American Enterprise Institute "proved" that the lowest IPCC emissions projection is too high, and they backed up their conclusion with actual 1990s data, whereas Pielke, Wigley, and Green have "proven" that the highest IPCC emissions projection is too low, and they backed up their conclusion with actual data from this decade.

I will say one thing for this AEI analysis -- at least AEI drew an intellectually consistent conclusion. If the IPCC were overstating future GHG emissions, then obviously they were overstating future GHG concentrations, and thus obviously overstating future temperature rise, and therefore overstating future impacts, and finally, overstating the urgent need for action now. (And by action, I don't mean research and development.)

So tell me how Pielke et al can utterly disprove this analysis (sort of) and come to the same exact conclusion that the IPCC has overstated the urgent need for action now? This piece is an embarrassment. In fact, if Pielke et al. were aware of this previous analysis, then this Nature commentary borders on intellectual dishonesty.

Let's plow through the end of their commentary with my editorial commentary:

Dangerous conclusions

Because of these dramatic changes in the global economy it is likely that we have only just begun to experience the surge in global energy use associated with ongoing rapid development.

[We've been surging in global energy use for a long while now -- at least 250 years. That's why we're in danger.]

Such trends are in stark contrast to the optimism of the near-future IPCC projections and seem unlikely to alter course soon.

[The second half of that sentence is an assumption, no different than the IPCC's assumptions. Might be right. Might not. It was not at all true in the 1990s, as AEI showed.]

The world is on a development and energy path that will bring with it a surge in carbon-dioxide emissions -- a surge that can only end with a transformation of global energy systems.

[We've known that for decades. Hmm. Note to self: Be wary of analyses that use the word "surge."]

We believe such technological transformation will take many decades to complete, even if we start taking far more aggressive action on energy technology innovation today.

[They say that like it's startling news to anybody on the planet. If they had only defined what they mean by "innovation" here. Presumably they mean development of new technology (rather than exploitation of underutilized "new" technologies like lithium ion batteries for electric cars, solar thermal electric, cogeneration, electric efficiency), especially given their next sentence ... ]

Aside: Innovation has lots of related meanings (see here), but probably a good distinction to use is "Invention is the first occurrence of an idea for a new product or process, while innovation is the first attempt to carry it out into practice." That is, innovation is somewhere between R&D (research and development) and deployment (widespread use in the marketplace). This does not seem to be how Pielke et al use it [see next sentence], but it is how most people I know use it.

Enormous advances in energy technology will be needed to stabilize atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations at acceptable levels.

So they seem to think that "innovation" = "enormous advances in energy technology" = many radically new technologies [Green has previously [PDF] used the phrase "science and engineering-based technological breakthroughs"]. I confess I don't like having to guess what other people really mean.

[Here is where they take that dangerous high dive into the shallow end of the pool. First, how can they possibly make this statement if they haven't defined what "acceptable levels" are? Second, even if they defined acceptable levels the way a reasonable person might, how can they know we need "enormous advances" if they haven't explained the cost of inaction. Suppose the situation is so dire, especially because the IPCC has underestimated near-term emissions growth (and underestimated amplifying feedbacks), that we just can't wait for advances or breakthroughs that might never come. Suppose we simply need to bite the bullet and deploy every last bit of existing technology as fast as possible to avert unimaginable catastrophe. Note to Pielke, Wigley, and Green -- it is that dire.]

If much of these advances occur spontaneously, as suggested by the scenarios used by the IPCC, then the challenge of stabilization might be less complicated and costly.

[I think the word "spontaneously" is misleading here. Countries can choose to embrace efficiency or not -- as China proved. Yes, it is more economically expensive to embrace low-carbon fuels -- but it won't be when there is a price for carbon, even without technology advances. And what if the price of oil doubles over the next decade or so? That will also "spontaneously" change the rate of change of energy intensity.]

However, if most decarbonization does not occur automatically, then the challenge to stabilization could in fact be much larger than presented by the IPCC.

[Again, "automatically" is misleading. Countries that recognize how dire the situation is have been decarbonizing. China, obviously, has been doing the reverse -- perhaps because they've been reading Pielke's work and concluding the situation is not dire and it can be solve by new technology in the future. Or maybe they read AEI's work and concluded the situation is not dire ... ]

There is no question about whether technological innovation is necessary -- it is.

[Again, they say that like it's startling news to anybody on the planet. ]

The question is, to what degree should policy focus directly on motivating such innovation?

[That is not the question, at least not if you accept the scientific understanding of global warming as reflected in the IPCC summaries. The question is, to what degree should policy focus on accelerating the deployment of energy efficient and decarbonizing technology now? We don't so much need policies to "motivate" innovation (at least if innovation means R&D), as we need to start spending a lot more money directly on R&D. What we urgently need to "motivate" is technology deployment.]

IPCC plays a risky game in assuming that spontaneous advances in technological innovation will carry most of the burden of achieving future emissions reductions, rather than focusing on creating the conditions for such innovations to occur.

Huh? Shouldn't the last sentence be, uh, like, clear in its meaning, or even, for that matter, somewhat true? Could they have packed more confusing or misleading thoughts into it?

  1. The IPCC is playing "a risky game"? The IPCC scientists are begging the world to stabilize below 450 ppm. The risky game is Pielke et al.'s pointless pitch for new technology when we have run out of time for such delay.
  2. The IPCC hasn't been assuming "spontaneous advances in technological innovation. " They have been assuming varyingly aggressive amounts of technology deployment. Why don't the delayers understand the difference between R&D and deployment. It takes a long time for "enormous advances in energy technology" to achieve significant commercial success in the market -- usually decades (Solar PV was developed here 50 years ago, and it's now 0.1 percent of electricity production -- at least in this country, because we don't emphasize deployment). If energy efficiency and decarbonization lagged from 2000 to 2006, it's not because new technology wasn't developed (or, in Pielke's language, it's not because we lacked spontaneous advances in technological innovation). It's because we didn't deploy the energy-efficient and low carbon technologies we had.
  3. " ... rather than focusing on creating the conditions for such innovations to occur." This is similar to the earlier phrase "diverting attention from policies that could directly stimulate technological innovation." It is similarly nonsense. The conditions for innovation in climate solutions as most people define innovation is a serious price for carbon plus improved regulations (fuel economy standards, appliance standards, utility decoupling, etc.).

Of course we need aggressive investments in R&D -- I for one have been arguing that for two decades. We must have all whole new set of technologies ready for mass deployment by 2050, if not 2030, when we need to make deep GHG reductions and ultimately go to zero net emissions, if not lower.

But if we don't start aggressively deploying the technologies we have now for the next quarter century, then all the new technologies in the world won't avert catastrophe (and we'll still need aggressive tech deployment strategies and a serious price for carbon to deploy those new technologies!) -- which the authors would have to admit if they ever actually defined what "acceptable levels" of GHG concentrations were.

The entire focus of the IPCC scientists is on creating the conditions for aggressive technology. They write:

There is high agreement and much evidence that all stabilisation levels assessed can be achieved by deployment of a portfolio of technologies that are either currently available or expected to be commercialised in coming decades, assuming appropriate and effective incentives are in place for their development, acquisition, deployment and diffusion and addressing related barriers.

When the Synthesis report was released in November, IPCC head Rajendra Pachauri said "If there's no action before 2012, that's too late. What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment."

How can the IPCC possible be accused of "diverting attention from policies that could directly stimulate technological innovation"? On the other hand, Pielke, Wigley, and Green can be -- in fact, that seems to be their primary goal here. They are the ones diverting attention from stimulating innovation (as defined above) and aggressive technology deployment by focusing instead on the need for "enormous advances in energy technology." This piece is the definitive "technology, technology, technology, blah, blah" commentary .

That is why the piece is dangerous -- if anybody actually listens to them, we would be more likely to end up at 800 to 1000 ppm. And that is why it is embarrassing to Nature for giving a veneer of legitimacy to such delayer nonsense.

Note: Nature has an article ($ub. req'd) on this piece, "Are the IPCC scenarios 'unachievable'?" which draws further unwarranted attention to the piece. I'll discuss this article later, since it does something that also borders on intellectual dishonesty.

This post was created for ClimateProgress.org, a project of the Center for American Progress Action Fund.

Are "delayers" really bad?

Joseph Romm's critique of the Pielke et al paper misses a key point.

Pielke's paper simply states the case that it may be not as easy to stabilize CO2 emissions as we may have been led to believe, and that the technological advances that will be required to achieve this stabilization may take longer to achieve than has been optimistically assumed.  

For this he is lumped together with "Bush/Lomborg/Gingrich" as a "delayer", with the implication that delaying action is tantamount to courting disaster for our planet.

The even more pertinent question should be raised: "why should we spend billions (or as many suggest hundreds of billions) of dollars and throw the whole world into a major recession in order to stabilize CO2 emissions (at an arbitrary level of 450 ppmv?) when we are not even certain that this will have any beneficial impact on the future of our planet?"

Let's look at what is going on out there in the real world (not the virtual reality of climate models) and ask some basic questions.

Is the global warming paradigm collapsing? (There has been no warming trend since 1998, despite steady increases in atmospheric CO2 concentrations).

Are the hypotheses that "positive feedbacks" dominate, upon which the whole global warming scare is based, coming unraveled?  (Latest satellite findings confirm earlier theories that natural weather processes automatically regulate temperatures to prevent runaway warming.)

Are some doomsayers becoming shriller and shriller in a "last ditch" attempt to keep the global warming hysteria alive? (Imminent computer-generated "tipping points" from which the planet will not be able to recover are being predicted, unless immediate actions are taken).

How many more years of flat temperature trends (or even cooling) will it take until the multibillion-dollar global warming bubble bursts?

Will this bring the dissolution of the IPCC and the collapse of the current boom in taxpayer-funded "climate research"?

Will there be a new "anthropogenic disaster" prediction to replace global warming when it dies?

Will we return to the "disastrous global cooling" scare of the 1970s, or will the new imminent man-made disaster be something other than climate-related?

These are interesting questions of our times (2008), which cast in doubt the sinister consequences of being a "delayer".

Max

Predictions

Yes

Yes

Yes

I give it one.

Yes, not a collapse though, and a whole lot more due dilligence.

Yes

Global Cooling.  I wonder what the solution will be; and subsequently how humans will be causing the problem.

First, delayer-boy

The even more pertinent question should be raised: "why should we spend billions (or as many suggest hundreds of billions) of dollars and throw the whole world into a major recession in order to stabilize CO2 emissions (at an arbitrary level of 450 ppmv?) when we are not even certain that this will have any beneficial impact on the future of our planet?"

What's uncertain is whether "we" are spending billions of dollars.  The global money system exists through ceaseless borrowing, and borrowing is actually the creation of money.  So someone borrows a lot of money and gives world-society a technical upgrade.  Instant catastrophe?  Prove it!

What's also uncertain is whether any technical upgrade would "throw the whole world into a major recession."  Delayer-boy has little concept of economics.  The main causes of immediate economic stagnation at this late date in the history of capitalism are 1) the old one, the crisis of overproduction, in which capital is producing stuff nobody can afford to buy, because the economy is too toploaded (i.e. the richest 1% have too much of the total wealth and the masses have too little), and 2) the new one, in which the capitalist nation-state system destroys Earth's ecosystems to the point at which ecosystem damage interferes with the profit rate.

Is the global warming paradigm collapsing? (There has been no warming trend since 1998, despite steady increases in atmospheric CO2 concentrations).

Delayer-boy ignores the statistics showing a real warming trend, and focus upon a time-period so short that it's irrelevant to the overall trend.

Are the hypotheses that "positive feedbacks" dominate, upon which the whole global warming scare is based, coming unraveled?

The obvious conclusions include, for instance, that the melting of the polar ice caps will decrease Earth's albedo, and that changes in oceanic temperatures will result in the untimely death of coral reefs.  What are the unobvious ones?

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus

Next, the "technology issue"

New energy technologies will, in themselves, do nothing to deal with the problem of abrupt climate change.

The only way that anything will be done is if the wells are capped and the mines are abandoned.  It's that or nothing.

New energy technology may make life a little more convenient for the privileged few who can afford it.  Period.  New energy technology will do nothing for the bottom 40% of humanity who live on less than $2/day.

The debate about abrupt climate change is a debate about the ecosystem resilience of planet Earth in the face of increasing atmospheric CO2 levels, the melting of the polar ice caps, the death of coral reefs, and so on.  It's a debate about the role of the human race as a species of care-takers of Earth's ecosystems.  It has nothing to do with whether the privileged classes will be able to run their toasters when the oil wells are capped.

The "energy technology" people start from the assumption that world-society is pumping and burning 85 million barrels of oil every day (accounting for a mere 36% of greenhouse gas emissions) to satisfy human energy needs.  Wrong.  Production under the conditions of capitalist world society is production for effective demand, demand backed by money.  The energy production sector is damaging ecosystem integrity in order to make a buck.  If we want to be ecosystem stewards, we need to move away from an economy that makes stuff to make a buck, toward an economy that does otherwise.

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus

Message to LegumeSam

Pardon the expression, LegumeSam, but you are (as your name implies) "full of beans".

First, your claim that 10 years is too short to make a trend, I can only add that 22 years (1976 to 1998) is only 2.2 times that long, and this period is being used to sell the whole AGW story.

Your statement "The energy production sector is damaging ecosystem integrity in order to make a buck" is totally contrived.

The question is not "whether any technical upgrade would `throw the whole world into a major recession'", it is whether we need to implement carbon cap and trade schemes or taxes to achieve this.  I really do not think so.  And I do not think you have brought me any evidence that this is the case.

We will have "technical upgrades" (because these make good economic sense as they always have in the past).

Draconian carbon taxes or cap and trade schemes will neither reduce the world's "carbon footprint" nor resolve any "peak oil" problems.  I have never heard of a case where a heavy tax has solved any problem.  Have you?

Switching to alternate energy sources (domestic clean coal, nuclear, renewable sources and others) as imported oil becomes too expensive or geopolitically risky makes a lot of sense.  But we do not need any carbon taxes or cap and trade schemes for this to happen.

You wrote: "New energy technologies will, in themselves, do nothing to deal with the problem of abrupt climate change."  What problem?  What abrupt climate change?  Where is this and how do you document that it exists at all?

You closed with, "If we want to be ecosystem stewards, we need to move away from an economy that makes stuff to make a buck, toward an economy that does otherwise."

What do you mean by "otherwise"?  Does this mean "move toward an economy that does not make stuff to make a buck or to make stuff that does not make a buck"?

What kind of an economy is that?

Who pays for the wages and salaries of the people who are "making the stuff"?

Taxes?

Who is paying the taxes?

Get real, LegumeSam.  You need an economy to support all these good ideas, not on government regulation and taxes.  Wake up to the real world out there.

Regards,

Max


I have no intention of debating trolls

especially those whose posts are full of ad hominems and other sh*t.

http://www.dailykos.com/User/Cassiodorus
LegumeSam does not wish to debate

LegumeSam writes: "I have no intention of debating trolls, especially those whose posts are full of ad hominems and other sh*t."

Let's analyze this:

"Trolls"?  Oh-oh, smells of ad hom put down.  For shame!

"Other sh*t".  Tsk, tsk. Such poor language!

To which ad homs was LS referring?

LegumeSam is full of "legumes", all right.

Rather than debating issues, LS prefers the fallacy of "ad hom attacks".

Makes sense.  It avoids the real issues and is less likely to expose that there is no real argument than a real debate would.

Max

Embarrassing nonsense

One could ask, "Why did Gristmill run Joseph Romm's pointless, misleading, embarrassing nonsense?"

Duh!


What a pointless tirade this Grist posting is

First, I apologize for being so harsh and negative, but I've never seen such a pointless tirade in Grist as this posting.

To summarize, the above post says that the report "Dangerous Assumptions" is pointless because:

  1. The report doesn't state a specific dangerous CO2 level.

  2. The report states the obvious that the IPCC issued conservative findings.

  3. The report never explains why the conservative IPCC findings divert attention from policies that could directly stimulate technological innovation.

Let me explain to Mr Romm:

  1. Stating a specific dangerous CO2 level isn't necessary, but it is probably close to 350 ppm CO2 (per Dr James Hansen, NASA).  Instead, as is conceeded by Mr Romm in the above point 2, it is obvious that the IPCC's findings were too conservative.

  2.  Restating the obvious isn't a sin, but a necessary step in arguing that the IPCC's findings divert attention from policies that could directly stimulate technological innovation.

  3.  The reason the IPCC's too conservative "divert attention from policies that could stimulate technology innovation," is because if a goal is underestimated, the steps necessary to reach that goal will be minimized.

The fundamental mistake Mr Romm makes in the above posting is to assume that the only steps necessary to avoid a climate catastrophe are emission reductions:

"I know of no realistic person who thinks carbon dioxide emissions are goinf to do anything but grow."  --Pete Geddes, executive vice president of the Foundation for Research on Economics and the Environment

"I never believed we were going to be able to thwart global wrming through carbon restrictions.  Carbon restriction requires nations to subvert shrt- and medterm goals for a long-term goal they've read about online, ant that's not going to work."  --Gregory Benford, UC-Irvine physicist

"Processes that would normally regulate climate are being driven to amplify warming. Such feedbacks, as well as the inertia of the Earth system -- and that of our response -- make it doubtful that any of the well-intentioned technical or social schemes for carbon dieting will (work). What is needed is a fundamental cure." --Dr James Lovelock

I have a message specifically to Mr Romm:

"Those do gooder actions are not going to be able to turn the temperature tide, and even incremental political changes like reducing greenhouse gas emissions and mining alternative fuel sources are not forward-thinking enough."  --Gregor Benford

No amount of table pounding is going to change the facts-the order of magnitude change is much greater than what the IPCC implied in their last report, and that plainly has misled policy-makers as to the steps necessary to avoid dangerous warming.

Um, with regard to "heavy taxes" ...

I can't resist a quick response to Manacker's following comment, which is staggering in its broad-brush breathlessness:

I have never heard of a case where a heavy tax has solved any problem.  Have you?

Um, well, Social Security taxes for one.  They have protected a boatload of elderly and handicapped people in our country from the unmitigated abject poverty that they otherwise would have suffered through.  Which was a very real problem for the elderly and handicapped in, oh, 1932 or so.

Or, if you prefer a response that's more friendly to the right-wing perspective: military taxes.  It doesn't seem to me a wild stretch of the imagination to argue that military taxes helped us "solve" the "problem" of Adolf Hitler in the 1940's.  For example.

(Of course, the current Imposter-in-Chief doesn't want to burden current taxpayers with the full cost of his war in Iraq by actually taxing us accordingly ... so we simply borrow the money from our children and grandchildren (thanks kids!) .... and neocons use the resulting bankruptcy of the U.S. Treasury as an excuse to roll back funding of that very tiny percentage that goes, or used to go, to environmental and social causes).

I saw an article this week that the GAO has discovered that 95 Pentagon projects have collectively overrun their budgets by $295 billion dollars.  That's 295 BILLION.  As they say, $295 billion here, $295 billion there, and pretty soon it adds up to real money ...

Not a waste of Grist's space

Well that clearly an enlightening debate by Grist readers!

The main problem I have with that paper, like Mr. Romm, is the rather narrow-minded view that this word "technology" is our saviour and only saviour.

I think Mr. Romm is right to complain about this piece... we've become too accustomed to the garbage that falls under the manner of scientific writing, and as a result it diminishes the actual, well-thought-out scientific writing that doesn't get enough attention.

Let's all aspire to constructive, healthy debate.  (To throw out a pie-in-the-sky aspiration.)

Peter

Has everyone given up?

Guys, April's Fool Day is over. Let's get real. You all propose solutions but lack evidence of workability.Some of you say reducing fossil fuel use is pointless. Some of you say eliminating all carbon fuels is a big part of the solution. Some of you say renewables and efficiency will solve the problem. Some of you say existing technology is the answer. Some of you say it isn't. This is getting a bit tiresome and leads me to wonder whether exhaling CO2 doesn't cause brain damage. Can we rewind the tape and get back to the basics?
Greenhouse gases, mainly CO2 at this time, are causing an increase in average global temperature. Existing CO2 from prior releases is irreversible today with existing technology, committing us to a certain increase in this temperature. Restricting future CO2 emissions (and other GHGs) will therefore act to restrain the future global temperature increase. The sooner we restrict energy demand, using a variety of tactics including price, rationing, and mandatory conservation measures, the more we reduce future emissions. Are we all together on this so far?
If so, then the debate SHIFTS to another topic: how and how soon can efficiency and renewable energy technologies come on line to fill the REDUCED future energy demand? The debate has mixed apples and oranges and it is time to focus on the first and most important challenge: reducing fossil fuel consumption. Those who deny that carbon taxes can do this are assuming that such taxes ALONE will do the trick. But no one said that carbon taxes were the only thing we need.They are among the FIRST things. Why are so many purportedly smart people diverting the debate away from the key point: the need to reduce energy demand. Are these people working secretly for the investor-owned utilities? Do they put economic growth above all other considerations? Are they making excuses for the coal utilities and mining industry? Please excuse me for perhaps appearing confused but  I don't see a real debate going on about real issues. Can we refocus our astigmatic argument and agree to agree on the facts before we agree to disagree on speculations about future technology?

Why is delaying a bad thing?

So far I have not seen any compelling arguments against "delaying" action until we can truly see whether or not the current (1998-2008) flat or even cooling temperature trend is the beginning of a longer term trend.

The "imminent disaster" and "tipping point" hysteria calls for immediate action. This alarmist position is based on the premise that "positive feedbacks" dominate the climate system.

New scientific findings show that strong "negative feedbacks" from clouds tend to regulate the climate system instead. These have been overlooked by the many climate model studies that show alarming projections.

These findings, plus the fact that temperatures have reached a plateau (or are even beginning to drop), would tell me, as a rational skeptic, that now is the time to first find out what is really going on before rushing to implement draconian measures that may not bring us any benefit at all, but will undoubtedly be very costly for everyone.

That is why I believe being a "delayer" may not be such a bad idea, after all. Let's get all the facts before we rush into action.

If anyone has any rational arguments against this position, I would be glad to hear them.

Max

Taxes as solutions to problems

GonzoDon raised some interesting questions.

There have undoubtedly been periods in history where taxes were implemented to finance a specific solution or political course of action.

Forgetting the classical example of the rise and fall of the Roman Empire (both of which came about to a great extent due to taxes), one can look at U.S. history.

The first federal income tax was imposed in 1862 to finance the costs of the Civil War.  It was repealed in 1872.

Shortly before WWI Congress reenacted a federal income tax, which was then increased to finance WWI.  This one never got repealed.

During the Great Depression the top marginal tax rate was increased in an effort to "level" the wealth between rich and poor and to finance large public works projects to help reduce massive unemployment.

And during WWII the rates were increased again, this time to finance the costs of the war.  Payroll withholding and quarterly tax payments were also implemented to accelerate tax revenue cash flow.  

Since 1935, the Social Security "tax" is actually a federally mandated retirement savings plan or "social insurance program", covering the benefits for retirement, disability, survivorship, and death.

In 1965 Medicare and Medicaid were added to provide medical insurance coverage for seniors and indigent patients, and in 1972 the coverage was extended to ceratin disabled persons under the age of 65.

So yes, these "taxes" were all enacted to "solve a problem".

The gasoline "taxes" go toward financing the roadways, so are actually more of a "user's fee" than a real tax.

The proposed "carbon tax" would be a similar tax on all carbon-containing fossil fuels, but what would they, in fact, finance?  And even more important, what "problem" would these taxes solve?

Cap and trade schemes are even less transparent.  These caps supposedly generate a market value for carbon.   It is clear who will pay for all of this (everyone).  Who will be the beneficiary is a bit less apparent.  These schemes will undoubtedly earn a lot of money for some individuals, companies, hedge funds and other money shufflers.   Platitudes such as "the atmosphere is owned by all humanity" are being used to justify these schemes as a part of an "equitable, ethical and politically effective climate policy".  The question must again be asked: what specific "problem" would these schemes solve?

GonzoDon is correct in his statement.  The Civil War, WWI, the Great Depression,WWII, public health care for the elderly, the disabled and the indigent, building and maintaining the roadway network are all examples of real problems and issues that were "solved" by providing adequate financing through taxation.

In the case of a climate policy including carbon taxes or cap and trade schemes to "solve" global warming it is not evident:
·    That global warming is indeed a real problem that needs to be "solved"
·    That the proposed political action (tax or cap and trade) will have any net beneficial effect

To me that is the big difference.

Max


problem with delaying

Max wrote:
"That is why I believe being a "delayer" may not be such a bad idea, after all. Let's get all the facts before we rush into action."

Something that has never been explained to me is, even if you ignore the impacts associated global warming, why shouldn't we be stopping pollution? I'm not going to put on my tin foil hat and try to get all our fossil fuel power plants turned off tomorrow, but why shouldn't we be trying to move past the internal combustion engine and coal-fired power plants? "Maybe global warming is fake!" is too often used as a poor straw man to avoid talking about cutting pollution. Meanwhile, the Model T got the same mileage as my fiancee's 2001 Ford Focus, but hey, why innovate? Let's just stick with archaic technology, because obviously a high-pollution economy is preferable in every way to a lower-pollution economy. The more carbon monoxide, sulfur, and mercury we release in to the environment, the better off everyone becomes!

Don't delay progress

Hey stinkycheese,

You are spot on.

I am certainly NOT in favor of being a "delayer" when it comes to:
·    Improving energy efficiency in power generation (i.e. revamping or replacing old inefficient plants with newer plants)
·    Reducing waste on all levels
·    Reducing real air and water pollution (not CO2 emissions)
·    Reducing dependency on imported oil coming from politically unstable regions
·    Improving fuel efficiency of automobiles
·    Developing new energy-efficient sources of automotive fuels
·    Developing and installing more cost-effective renewable power generation sources
·    Building more nuclear power plants, and ensuring these are safe, of course)
·    Developing new fast breeder technology
·    Developing nuclear fusion technology
·    Etc.

But I am in favor of being a "delayer" when it comes to the implementation of draconian carbon taxes or cap and trade schemes, which will cost everyone a lot of money and will make some people, organizations, hedge funds or money shufflers rich, but will accomplish none of the above.

Regards,

Max

Pollution

In the penultimate post above, Stinkycheese, raised some good points about the need to reduce pollution, and I agree.  Hopefully, the move to greater efficiencies will have this effect at least in the developed World.  In fact there have already been improvements made over the decades.

His analogy:

"Meanwhile, the Model T got the same mileage as my fiancee's 2001 Ford Focus, but hey, why innovate?"

is getting around a bit and is not a good one.
If his fiancee drove her Ford Focus at the speeds and acceleration rates of the Model T, she would probably get excellent mileages, not to mention lower pollution and safety etc.

I have a friend in Belgium who owns a model T, and laughed recently that he was going flat-out along a narrow road, when a farm tractor honked for him to allow passing.

yes progress has its compromises

Burn more coal in the poverty stricken countries to generate electricity would be a good idea to reduce environmental degradation by reducing wood fire and dung cooking and heating.  Apparently millions die each year from such current practice

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