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Turning CO2 into gasoline

A new way to waste energy

Posted by Joseph Romm (Guest Contributor) at 9:34 AM on 21 Feb 2008

Last week, the NYT's Andy Revkin blogged about a federal laboratory that says it can take atmospheric carbon dioxide and turn it into gasoline:

One selling point with Los Alamos's "Green Freedom" concept, and similar ones, is that reusing the carbon atoms in the captured CO2 molecules as a fuel ingredient avoids the need to find huge repositories for the greenhouse gas.

The only problem with that exciting statement is that it is almost certainly not true, a point I will come back to.

Now the NYT has published an article on the subject that also overhypes the technology:

There is, however, a major caveat that explains why no one has built a carbon-dioxide-to-gasoline factory: it requires a great deal of energy.

To deal with that problem, the Los Alamos scientists say they have developed a number of innovations ...

Even with those improvements, providing the energy to produce gasoline on a commercial scale -- say, 750,000 gallons a day -- would require a dedicated power plant, preferably a nuclear one, the scientists say.

Hmm. Let's see.

Problem one: Motor gasoline consumption in this country is almost 400 million gallons a day. So we would need more than 500 nuclear power plants, just in this country ... and just for gasoline (you'd have to more than double that to displace all the other petroleum products we consume, like diesel fuel). And that would probably require another five Yucca mountains just to store the waste, although I'm not sure the word "another" is right 'cause this country can't even agree on one friggin' storage site in the middle of nowhere.

Problem two: According to the Los Alamos "Green Freedom" overview (PDF), each 750,000-gallon-a-day plant (with accompanying nuclear reactor) costs $5 billion. So cutting under half of all petroleum use in this country would cost over $2.5 trillion (not counting this cost of uranium or disposal)!

This supposedly yields a gasoline price of $4.60 a gallon, though the authors say with a couple more technological breakthroughs that could drop to $3.40. How about if instead of assuming more breakthroughs, which hardly ever happen in the energy sector, we apply Romm's Rule of Costs for Future Energy Sources.

Romm's Rule says that for any new energy technology that is not yet commercial (and in this case we have a "concept" for which the patent was still pending in November), take the inventor's highest projected cost and double it. Also, flip a coin, and if it comes up heads the technology will never be commercialized -- think fusion. And that's generous: in reality, if the coin comes up head or tails (i.e., doesn't land and balance on its edge), it will probably never be commercialized. Remember the fuel cell was invented in 1839, and commercial fuel cells are just a tad more common than time machines. [Please note this rule does not apply to technologies that are already commercial.]

Problem three: Romm's Rule of Energy Transformation. This rule, developed for analyzing hydrogen cars, says: You can probably make a sow's ear from a silk purse if you try hard enough, but why would you do that? Zero-carbon electricity is arguably the most premium energy carrier you can make in a carbon-constrained world, in part because electric motors are so efficient. Electricity can directly run a motor to move your electric car or plug-in hybrid for under $1.00 a gallon, even using expensive nuclear power. You lose maybe one-fifth of the original electricity in the process. The entire Green Freedom process is so inefficient that it probably throws away more than three-fourths of the original nuclear power (if not much more). Basically, after spending all that money and wasting all that premier power, you are stuck with a low-grade (but conventional) fuel that has to be run through an inefficient gasoline motor. Why would you do that?

[Yes, we don't quite yet have commercial plug ins, but they are straightforward extension of already commercial hybrids, we don't need any technology breakthroughs, and multiple manufactures will almost certainly be selling them within three to five years. Electric vehicles will be common in other countries within the same time frame, as I've written. All of this will happen decades before "Green Freedom," assuming it even proves feasible.]

Before coming to the last problem, let me complain about the NYT article, which, while skipping happily over the myriad problems with Green Freedom, bizarrely says of other alt fuels:

Hydrogen-powered cars emit no carbon dioxide, but producing hydrogen, by splitting water or some other chemical reaction, requires copious energy, and if that energy comes from coal-fired power plants, then the problem has not been solved. Hydrogen is also harder to store and move than gasoline and would require an overhaul of the world's energy infrastructure.

Electric cars also push the carbon dioxide problem to the power plant. And electric cars have typically been limited to a range of tens of miles as opposed to the hundreds of miles that can be driven on a tank of gas.

Yes, if the energy comes from coal, neither hydrogen or electric cars make sense. But the same exact thing can be said of Green Freedom: It makes no sense if you use coal plants, but the NYT never mentions that fact. That's why the Los Alamos inventors go the nuclear route. But if you can assume, say, 500 nuclear plants for Green Freedom, surely you can live with maybe 100 nukes for electric cars, which brings us to ...

Problem four: We are going to need a vast quantity of zero-carbon electricity in this country just to reduce emissions 80 percent in the electricity sector while supporting population growth and increased living standards. In the very unlikely event we would build 500 nukes and five Yucca-sized storage sites (and find the necessary uranium, given that, presumably, ever other country is going to be doing the same thing) to make carbon-neutral gasoline, it is safe to say that's all the nuclear power plants we will be building this century. So the electricity will have to come from renewable power and ... yes, coal power with carbon capture and storage (CCS). And if we keep dawdling, we are going to overshoot the safe level of carbon dioxide concentrations, and then need to pull carbon out of the air and not burn it.

So Green Freedom does not save us from "the need to find huge repositories for the greenhouse gas." If coal with CCS is practical and affordable, which strikes me as much more likely than Green Freedom achieving both of those goals, we are going to be doing as much CCS as we possibly can.

The scale of the climate solution is enormous -- so great you would never contemplate it if the result of doing nothing were not so irreversibly catastrophic. That's why, in spite of all these problems, in spite of the fact that it is exceedingly unlikely we would choose to use much Green Freedom by 2050 -- even in the equally unlikely event it is actually feasible on a large-scale in that time -- it probably deserves some exploratory funding. Although that assumes we have a president who triples federal clean-tech funding -- I wouldn't waste much money on it at current federal R&D levels. It certainly shouldn't be hyped by the media. (Or anyone else: this means you, Roger Pielke, Jr.) It is certainly no silver bullet -- it probably isn't even one of the 10 silver bullets we need -- but we can't afford to ignore any solution that has even some microscopic chance of working.

[Tip o' that hat to Earl K.]

This post was created for ClimateProgress.org, a project of the Center for American Progress Action Fund.

Diversion

Which leads to the obvious conclusion, this scheme is a diversion designed to stall plugin hybrids (chraged by a renewable smart grid)and keep the gas guzzling going.  And an excuse to build more nukes.  A two-fer.

My prediction was that nuclear power backers would get together with fuel farming agribizz corps and tar sand and coal to liquid companies to boost the idea of using cogenerated heat from nukes to improve the energy ratio and reduce the GHG problem with these fuels.

Alberta tar sands extractors are talking nuke already, not much from fuel farming or the Montana coal to liquid boosters yet on using nukes.  They are burning coal to power the coal to liquid plant in Montana.

Anytyhing to keep guzzling gas and vrooming the macho vroom.  And keep oil wars and the exxonmob going strong.  That's my take on cO2 to fuel with nukes.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

Well said, Joe

And as an aside to Dr. X, I see no real conspiracy here - only that the media loves a story about technology, especially ones that appear to solve problems.  They appeal to our national character, no matter how ill-informed.

NYT and others who support this deserve a lot of egg-on-their face, but primarily for shoddy journalism.  Put simply, they didn't check their facts.  I don't see this as having any long-term legs to it, for all the reasons Joe noted because eventually those facts come out.  And the more egg on the sloppy end of the media, the more discipline they'll have next time around.

No conspircay

I agree Sean, none needed.  Just bidness as usual.

Hope it doesn't turn up in Barack's inaugural address though.

We can make.....  clean fuel...from CO..2..  with clean ..nuc..clear power  yes we cAN!  Yow!  hehehey.  We will be missing the duuuhbya..

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

Why all the pessimism Joe?


"Romm's Rule says that for any new energy technology that is not yet commercial (and in this case we have a "concept" for which the patent was still pending in November), take the inventor's highest projected cost and double it. Also, flip a coin, and if it comes up heads the technology will never be commercialized"

Early solar cells cost $28 / watt. Applying Romm's rule we should have abandoned that idea decades ago, also transistors, lasers, gas turbines etc. Think of all the R&D money we would have saved.

Imagine a nuclear powered aircraft carrier that can make fuel for its jets and support ships out of thin air. This technology will be developed by the DOD and civilian applications will get the scraps that fall off the table, as it was with civilian nuclear power, even though the civilian applications will be much more beneficial than the military ones.

The world contains abundant raw materials for making steel, concrete and reactor fuel. We can gear up to mass produce any number of floating nuclear power plants  and floating nuclear gasoline plants we want.

We don't need any yucca mountains. Deep sea bed disposal of spent fuel mimics the natural process in which millions of tons of uranium ore wash into the sea each year, and converting uranium into fission products will make the earth less radioactive in the long run.

The analysis makes no mention of a price on CO2. a carbon tax or cap n trade would make the economics more attractive.

In a decade or so the world is going to be flooded with tiny cheap econobox cars burning liquid fuel. An econobox getting 60 mpg burning $4.60 / gal recycled CO2 will cost no more to run than a 30 mpg car burning $2.30 fossil carbon, which is less than most people pay to drive today.

We should be moving full speed ahead with this idea.


Things Everybody Should Know About Energy

Transit, Rail and Cycling are the Solution

Both "Green Freedom" and electric cars are desperate efforts to convince people that they can continue driving. Even electric cars require too many resources especially if you include full life cycle costs of the vehicle and the roads, bridges and parking spaces required for automobiles. Remember, we are in a world of 6 billion people and right now there are only about 800 million automobiles and yet they have caused so much damage.

Again, rail, rapid transit and cycling are the future. The age of the automobile is over. Electric vehicles only delay the inevitable

I ain't 'fraid a no Joe

Joe Romm, there you go again. Using "facts" and "rationale" to show how stupid this great idea is. Shame on you for your utter lack of vitriol and bias.

transit, rail and cycling

Great points racc.
  It comes down to the issue of equity. 6 billion people and 1 billion automobiles.  We know that doubling or tripling the number of automobiles is not feasible.  There's a lot of people out there who will never have a car.  We're part of the privileged minority who get the cars.  But taxing one type of car and subsidizing another type is just a big scam.   All cars should be taxed and the money used to subsidize transit and rail.

   Most people in North America drive and don't want to see the writing on the wall.  we shouldn't be supporting subsidizing the privileged.If we don't have the guts to show the world how to be sustainable than let's just give up right now.

bad ideas and good ideas

First of all, the original post: good work except for this:
We are going to need a vast quantity of
zero-carbon electricity in this country
just to reduce emissions 80 percent in
the electricity sector while supporting
 population growth and increased living
standards.
Joe: we cannot keep growing population and living standards. We've already overgrown sustainable carrying capacity of this planet 23%, I read recently. We can make a little more room with various improvements in technology choice, but we have to put an end to both growth of the population and growth of the GDP. We need to get over this cancerous idolatry of growth, preferrably yesterday. Having already failed to do it yesterday, let's do it today.
Other than that, Joe Romm's post was indeed full of "facts" and "rationality," which apparently were missed by Bill Hannahan, whose post completely ignored the points made in the post. Then he says we can convert everything to nukes, presumably be getting around the imminent end of the uranium supply by using breeder reactors, even more dangerous than conventional reactors. As for the waste, his brilliant idea is to DUMP IT IN THE OCEAN, a suggestion that makes me think, "lock this guy up, he's dangerous." He follows this beauty with the idea that if we turn our whole economy nuclear and dump all the radioactive waste into the oceans (usually thought of as being part of our own planet), we will make the planet "less radioactive in the long run"...which is like proposing to burn all the forests, which in the long run will reduce the threat of forest fire to any creatures that survived.
Posters on Grist tend to be well informed about climate change but make little mention of oil depletion. But there is strong evidence that constrictions on supply are already beginning and will soon accelerate, and will have a huge impact on our lives. For this reason, solutions must take the coming shortage into account, and therefore we simply don't have room to thrash around with bad solutions first and move toward good ones only after exhausting all the alternatives. We need to use the last of the oil to build the windmills and solar devices we need--and the railroads and bicycles we need in the realm of transportation, as racc and charlesjustice so aptly note. If we do continue to use cars, though, we should move to electric ones because they're so much more efficient that solving the problem of where we get the electricity is a better chore than the ones we face in trying to keep the liquid fuel option open.

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