Is the Chevy Volt just more GM greenwashing?

Sure looks that way

Posted by Joseph Romm (Guest Contributor) at 4:27 PM on 29 Jul 2007

Back in May, I was seduced by GM's seeming sincerity in developing a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, the Chevy Volt. We must always remember, however, that GM is a master greenwasher.

An article in Edmunds, "Chevrolet Volt Goes to Washington To Underline GM's Anti-CAFE-Increase Argument," suggests GM is using the Volt the same way it used fuel cell cars to kill the electric car in California (as the movie explains):

General Motors' North American operations chief, Troy Clarke, is meeting with legislators on Capitol Hill today, and he's bringing along the Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid prototype. GM hopes the Volt will help convince lawmakers that electric and alternative-fuel vehicles are the route to energy independence. The Big Three have strenuously opposed a proposed increase in CAFE standards, saying the cost of meeting higher mpg averages would take away resources that could be put toward development of alternative-energy vehicles.

Sad. If the Volt is mostly or even partly a head fake, then Toyota will win surely win the race for the car of the future.

At the same time, the automakers may be winning the fight against the Senate CAFE bill, according to the Wall Street Journal (subs. req'd) and E&E News (subs. req'd), excerpted below:

... the effort to include CAFE in the summer energy legislation appeared to be floundering, with supporters appearing unlikely to secure the 218 votes needed to assure passage. Even Markey and his House allies told reporters earlier this week that their goal was simply to get a CAFE increase on the president's desk "this year."

Both Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) and Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman John Dingell (D-Mich.) told reporters earlier this week that CAFE likely will not be part of the summer energy package.

But environmental groups and other advocates of the Markey bill are continuing to press for a vote next week and say they believe they can pick up enough support to pass the legislation.

"We are working on the expectation that it will come up next week," said Dan Becker, a CAFE expert with the Sierra Club. "We're working to get the votes, and I think we will win them in time to get a vote."

Auto industry representatives -- who backed an alternate version put together by moderate Democrats and Republicans -- also say they have received no indication that CAFE is off the table for next week's debate.

"It's just so hard to say that we're just acting under the assumption that it will come up," said Gloria Bergquist of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers.

A spokesman for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) reiterated last night that no decision has been made about whether there will be a CAFE vote before the August recess.

Potentially very sad, indeed.

This post was created for ClimateProgress.org, a project of the Center for American Progress Action Fund.

For story: Is the Chevy Volt just more GM greenwashing?
50 Comments | Post a Comment

I'm pretty sure the Volt is some kind of smoke

screen. A series hybrid using an ICE engine to drive a generator would get pretty crappy gas mileage... unless they know some secret I don't. Four out of every ten engine revolutions would not put power to the wheels. I think it is just a remnant from their fuel cell prototype work.

As I have posted before:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/genmo ...

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

by biodiversivist at 6:28 PM on 29 Jul 2007

Even if it IS a head fake, it's a lousy one

Why should one concept car, one that won't be in showrooms for at least three years and even then will only represent a fraction of Chevy (never mind GM as a whole) sales, convince us there's no need to tighten fuel economy standards?

Join the discussion on global warming, recycling, and organic beer at The Green Miles!

by TheGreenMiles at 7:02 PM on 29 Jul 2007

All The Volts in Voltville...

Curse those Chevy Volts says Gri(st|nch).Org

They are ruining their whole conspiracy!

A car from the premier American Corporation that will deliver 150 mph!

Gri(st|nch).org will show them! It will slide down from its chilly mountain and take all the Volts away just before Christmas!

by jabailo at 10:30 PM on 29 Jul 2007

Proffessor Prius

Said it's a fake. I talked to him at the Midwest Renewable Energy Fair. he is a Toyota spokesman for the Prius technology, explaining it to the public.

I jokingly taunted him that Toyota would lose first place if they did not dump the Prius parallel technology and go with the GM Volt serial plugin design. He got into the spirit and we bet lunch next year over my argument.

We'll see.

GM's habit of showing off various Volt concept shells with hydrogen fuel cell instead of the serial plugin hybrid once again raises "Who-killed-the-electric -car" suspiscions.

In that scenario, as you no doubt remember, one arm of GM was promoting the EV-1, while the main part of GM was trying to kill it. corporate schizophrenia? Or was there a method to their madness?

There was a method. To kill the green car legislative standards in California. Maybe the Volt is only that?

Not really, as with the eV-1, the engineers that designed the originmal serial plugin volt, really know they have a world beating, climate restoring concept.

40 miles on battery alone. More than covering most average daily tripping for most drivers. Think conversion of used cars though.

Not new cars from GM or toyota. They all seem dead set against the 200+ average mpg serial plugin hybrid under any name. 300+ mpg with half the horsepower of the sportscar like Volt.

Small businesses all over the uSA will be converting cars to this design if this energy revolution takes hold. But will it? or will humans migrate and die off in the millions to mitigate GHG climate disaster? Probably a little of both.

Along with renewable energy and conservation. The real political question is how much of the GHG saving activity will be used to save lives and forced migratory induced world wide mass pychosis. War, famine, and disease.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

by amazingdrx at 5:46 AM on 30 Jul 2007

The Toyota "Volta"

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=car.php& ...

GM spying on toyota? Or coincidence.

The Volta is not plugin, but it has that potential. As a 1/4 horsepower family version of the volta with batteries for 40 mile range would illustrate.

The potential for a modified turbocharger (to generate additional electricity instead of boost)installed on an ultraefficient diesel generator could far surpass the 200+ mpg. Duel cycle powerplants have 60% efficiency.

Not to mention the Boeing solid oxide fuel cell/microturbine generator. with over 3 times normal ICE efficiency.

These would make the serial design the clear winner in efficiency terms. But even an ultraefficient diesel generator could do that.

Locomotives and mining trucks and equipment have all gone to driving the wheels with electric motors powered by diesel generators. why? Fuel savings, greater efficiency.

Add plugin batteries to this design and only a range that covers the average trip between plugin charging opurtunities multiplies the mileage rapidly.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

by amazingdrx at 6:12 AM on 30 Jul 2007

Series hybrids are a lot more efficient

Biodiversivist I suspect your benchtop demonstration doesn't quite represent the state of the art so if your devices "only" managed 60% efficiency then GM should be able to do a little better. Also for ICE-driven cars for every 10 units of energy you put in you only get 2-4 units of useful energy out!

The point of the series hybrid is that the generator is optimised for constant output and doesn't have to deal with the varying load that acceleration demands on an ICE-driven car. So the generator's running at its most efficient speed all of the time that it's needed, and can be made much smaller as it isn't doing the accelerating.

Series hybrids are a lot more efficient than parallel hybrids and the sooner we swap the ICE and the elctric motor around the better.

As for the Volt, they've only made a design concept. This is not a prototype. It apparently only has a tiny motor in it to drive it at low speeds around showrooms and exhibitions and the E-Flex system has not yet reached the prototype stage.

by scatter at 9:12 AM on 30 Jul 2007

EV-1 An Experiment

The EV-1 was an experiment.

A successful experiment.

It was not "killed" but was assimilated into the GM Borg.

That is, they took what they learned and are building a better version of it...the Volt.

The cars (EV-1) were destroyed to avoid having competitors reverse engineer the design and components.

It happens all the time in business.

by jabailo at 10:16 AM on 30 Jul 2007

The Voice of America

Here's an article on the Volt with some videos:

http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-07-26-voa25.cfm

Ironically it's on the Voice of America web page...VoA...a voice in the wind...trying to spread the truth in the sea of ignorance regarding NGW.

by jabailo at 10:21 AM on 30 Jul 2007

Toyota Prius Is nothing But a PR EVENT

Every time I see a Prius on the road I see these people who think they are better than everyone for buying this car when they are foolish and are causing more damage to the US and more damage to the environment.

When the people out there can do much more for the environment than spending good hard earned money that goes to Foreign owned companies that cause huge amounts of air pollution.

There was a study released that making one car causes more air pollution than keeping your gas guzzling one for the next 10 years.

I can't believe how stupid people here are GM designed the first Plug in Hybrid hands down. The EV1 had many revisions of engines installed and were given to people for testing. GM was bamboozled in to selling the battery company to Chevron and then they put a stipulation on the batteries saying they had to be charged by a gas engine.

The evil company is Chevron not GM. The people here need to read history. The evil folks are the oil companies lay off GM as they are trying very hard to do there best. No matter how you slice the cake GM was first and Toyota will ALLWAYS be second because the EV1 beet Toyota a long time ago.

When this car gets only 40 MPG according to the new estimates and Toyota LIED!

The Model T ford got 30 MPG and that was 100 years ago.

Come on people the Toyota Prius is a big Toyota PR event. The entire car is a lie.

The technology was developed by ford and GM now has two mode hybrid technologies that surpass Toyota.

There are weird people who are now going around breaking SUV cars up when they don't realize the paint spray these things need to be re-painted causes huge amount of environmental
damage.

by geisemann at 11:35 AM on 30 Jul 2007

Noooo not the CNW Marketing Research Report Again!

Sorry Geisemann but that "study" (it was a piece of marketing disinformation) has been widely discredited as not being worth the paper it's written on. If you take the time to read past the first chapter you will see that it's just badly written, impenetrable fiction. It's done its job though, slightly damaging the market for new efficient cars and leading many to believe that retaining gas guzzlers is a positive thing. It isn't.

by scatter at 11:56 AM on 30 Jul 2007

Scatter

"Also for ICE-driven cars for every 10 units of energy you put in you only get 2-4 units of useful energy out!"

The generator is turned by an ICE, which, for every 10 units of energy you put in you only get 2-4 units of useful energy out.

You are right that the ICE driving the generator in a series hybrid could run at more constant speeds and therefore run more efficiently. That is how aircraft engines are used, but that fact alone is not enough to give aircraft better mileage than a car because of other factors (different ones from a series car).

I'd be happy to be proven wrong by GM or any other manufacturer. One way I could be proven wrong would be to use the cars mostly in electric mode with the generator as an emergency backup to be used only on occasion. As long as people remained in the design envelope enough, the cars could get huge average gas mileage even though it might stink in emergency mode.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

by biodiversivist at 3:56 PM on 30 Jul 2007

Reality Check

For those of you who believe American cars are built by Americans and Japanese cars are built by Japanese...

*Don't Read Any Further If You Don't Want To Be Disappointed*

In some cases Toyota has accomplished building more cars using more Americans with more American parts than the big 3. Stop worrying about the "stupid people" and the "everyone's" who are out to kill the American economy. If you want a plasma TV under $10,000 than yours will be made in China. It's a global economy, get used to it.

The reality about CAFÉ standards is that it is a farce in the first place. If you can drive more because you can go further on less gas, than guess what, you do. I realize that the commute to work will be more efficient, but efficiency enables us to take that drive "up north" for the weekend (because we can afford it) and we'll drive ALONE to work because we can. I hate to scorch the fist you have your money in, but what will motivate you to demand fuel alternatives is the price you pay to put it in your tank; along with taxing corporations who leave offensive carbon footprints (the amount of climate changing gases they release into the air).

GM is the biggest corporation in the world (passed momentarily by Toyota) not because they're giving away daisies. When they wanted to create an entirely automotive transportation network in Detroit they bought ALL the public transport, sold it to Mexico, and never shuttered an eye. Was it fair?

GM has never proven itself as friendly and never had environmental integrity. If you believed in the EV1, shame on them. If you believe in the Volt, shame on you. Only time will tell, until then, by the one that's making an effort NOW.

by netguru2000 at 5:08 PM on 30 Jul 2007

That's exactly how people will use it!

In the UK, 55% of car journeys are under 5 miles. My guess is that average journeys are a fair bit longer in the states but I'm sure there's a stat which isn't that far away from that.

Sadly the Volt's only shooting for a 40 mile battery only range but others are aiming much higher. Cleanova for example will offer a battery only range of 100 miles and the range extender will increase that to 250+ miles.

by scatter at 3:52 AM on 31 Jul 2007

Toyota plugin

http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2007/07/japan-c ...

With a pathetic 8 mile battery only range and Nimh batteries. Is toyota serious about this?

With the Hymotion Prius plugin conversion using A123 nano tech lithium ion batteries ..40 mile range. No Toyota is not serious about plugins. Is GM? Probably not.

It's an oily world of automotive board room diversion from real GHG solutions.

Board rooms need the conversion. To sentient beings. Enough with the dolts dead from the neck up now running the auto world.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

by amazingdrx at 4:48 AM on 31 Jul 2007

Geisemann

Model T: The Model T didn't have crumple zones, side impact protection, etc. It's top speed was a paltry ~70 km/h, unlike the 190 km+ of most modern cars. The Model T had a curb wt of 1200-1500 lbs, much less than the avg sedan of today (~3300 lbs). That's why it acheived 30 mpg 100 yrs ago. A Honda Civic (~2600 lbs, 110+ hp vs 20 hp) easily gets 35+ mpg, so the Model T mpg is not too impressive to me, with the strong linear negative correlation of wt. vs. mpg.

Chevron: Maybe Chevron realizes the future trend is cars with batteries and it's making a smart business decision by investing in battery R&D and manufacturing. At least this is my hope. If Chevron is a real obstacle, the Volt will probably not come to fruition: Chevron is in a joint venture with Energy Conversion Devices called Cobasys. Cobasys is in partnership to with A123 Systems to commercialize A123's revolutionary lithium nanophosphate batteries for hybrid vehicles. A123Systems is one of two suppliers GM has contracts with to supply batteries for experimental hybrids. After all, partnerships that bring disparate skillsets to the table are a good way to get a tough job done.

-- Pete

by psommerfeld at 10:19 AM on 31 Jul 2007
[ Parent ]

Cool

I agree

by queenbatsupernerdiocom at 5:05 PM on 03 Aug 2007

hydrogen

I've made the argument in these pages that "plug-ins" are looking a lot like that old "hydrogen car" cycle.

They are (a) future tech that (b) ask us to do nothing today but (c) promise us a better future, based (d) on unavailable technology.

People can argue that hypothetical future plug-in hybrids "are" better than a Prius but they fail "present tense." They confuse a (possible) future with the world as it exists today.

Robert Rapier quotes Dave Juday on (similar) ethanol arguments:

"It's like trying to solve a traffic problem by mandating hovercraft. Except we don't have hovercraft."

Exactly.

Anyone who thinks we have a Volt, or even a serial hybrid better than a Prius, give me a link to a auto dealer website ... in the present tense.

by odograph at 5:56 PM on 03 Aug 2007

Wrong analogy

I've made the argument in these pages that "plug-ins" are looking a lot like that old "hydrogen car" cycle.
They are (a) future tech that (b) ask us to do nothing today but (c) promise us a better future, based (d) on unavailable technology.
People can argue that hypothetical future plug-in hybrids "are" better than a Prius but they fail "present tense." They confuse a (possible) future with the world as it exists today.
Robert Rapier quotes Dave Juday on (similar) ethanol arguments:
"It's like trying to solve a traffic problem by mandating hovercraft. Except we don't have hovercraft."
Exactly.
Anyone who thinks we have a Volt, or even a serial hybrid better than a Prius, give me a link to a auto dealer website ... in the present tense.

But thats the catch that comment was made in the context that "We don't have any technology to do this"

Plugins are merely a "We just need the political and commercial will to do this".

Plugin hybrids aren't exactly difficult from a technology perspective.

-David Ahlport

by GreyFlcn at 6:03 PM on 03 Aug 2007
[ Parent ]

huh?

"Plugins are merely a 'We just need the political and commercial will to do this'."

If you mean we don't have the political to move the median price for a car up $10,000 you are right.

... and that's what it would take with current technology (hand-waving arguments about economies of scale not withstanding).

by odograph at 6:16 PM on 03 Aug 2007

True

But thats the misconception that a Plugin hybrid is merely "A hybrid with a bigger batter"

If instead it is an electric car with a small gasoline generator, then the cost isn't such an issue.

Especially considering plugin hybrids get to skimp on battery cost.

-David Ahlport

by GreyFlcn at 6:28 PM on 03 Aug 2007
[ Parent ]

physics

I believe the physics dictate that a US-legal car be a "hybrid with a bigger battery."

It needs to be, if you want to run far from home on your overnight charge.

If you take the other approach, and lighten it to the point that it works as an electric car, you get the sort of things they drive now in London, to avoid congestion charges.

I don't think that is a heck of a lot of car for £3999 or $8122US

by odograph at 6:40 PM on 03 Aug 2007

Small car, yes.

Well lets imagine for instance, that an electric car with a gasoline backup generator is actually worse than a conventional gasoline car.

If you're only filling up on gasoline less than half a dozen times a year, it's not like it needs to be all that efficient.

Consider the gasoline engine more like a spare tire for an electric car with a small range.

That said, the GWiz has to limbo under the congestion charge ruling.

Thats largely why it's so tiny.

But what I have my eye on is instead the Phoenix SUVs.
http://greyfalcon.net/phoenixsuv.png

Slap a small gasoline generator in this, get a better paintjob, and you got yourself a hot seller.

As is the EV version should be out in a few months at the price of about $29,000.

-David Ahlport

by GreyFlcn at 6:49 PM on 03 Aug 2007
[ Parent ]

same car? $40,000 and $45,000?

"The car was roughly equivalent to an SUV costing around $30,000 or so. But since it will go on sale for between $40,000 and $45,000, there's a big premium for going electric. And without a network of charging stations, you'd better be able to plug it in at home and at work just to make sure. But it's much more practical than the Tesla, and less than half the price to boot."

from this page

by odograph at 7:19 PM on 03 Aug 2007

Thats the truck

Thats the Truck model
I'm talking about the SUV model

Note the flatbed in your picture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyLvQ4OK_W8

-David Ahlport

by GreyFlcn at 7:41 PM on 03 Aug 2007
[ Parent ]

That said

I'm conservatively guessing that "low thiry thousands" means $35,000.

And then I'm factoring in an existing $6000 clean air act tax credit.

-David Ahlport

by GreyFlcn at 7:46 PM on 03 Aug 2007

SUV

I don't think "SUV" would be in that particular paragraph if they were talking about the truck.

And there was no "my picture." The article talked about both vehicles:

"The company's two models were on display, the SUV truck and classic SUV. The vehicles are actually standard production models from Korean automaker SsangYong."

Now this is really an example of the Plug-In (or electric) problem in a nutshell. Since these are future cars we need to read the news and promises ... and decide who is optimistic or pessimistic.

If this was "present tense" we wouldn't have that problem.

FWIW, returning to physics, I don't see a big enough weight or range difference between the truck version and the non to warrant a huge reduction in batteries.

I think the thing will cost at least $45K ... feel free to wait for the present tense and prove me wrong.

by odograph at 6:12 AM on 04 Aug 2007

another data poing

Zipping Down the Road on the Electric Vectrix

... $10,000 for a scooter ... another indicator that it is still costly (with current and not "future" tech) to move metal down the road with electricity.

by odograph at 6:38 AM on 04 Aug 2007

I think we're screwed.

Rant alert. If you're a car person quit reading now if you don't want to be irritated.

So a working, here-right-now electric vehicle - the G-Wiz - providing quiet, functional zero-emissions family transportation daily on the streets of London gets about zero attention from the Grist car guys. "Not much of a car for $8,122" grumbles Odograph. So if it's not an electric Camaro it doesn't deserve notice? This car and others like it would work just fine for hundreds of thousands of Americans if only the deep, deep US prejudice against any Eurogenic transportation technologies and precedents could be relaxed, just for a moment. If it's not born or first theorized right here in America it won't get a moment's attention (before anyone mentions the Prius, primitive hybrid technology was powering homebuilts around American cities thirty years ago). Did anyone notice how little interest was expressed in Gristmill's NYC congestion charge discussion in learning from the years of experience in European cities of the effects of such charges? Theory and abstraction all the way about how special Americans are with their cars and how of course they can't be expected to change just one little bit and it'll be an economic disaster to interrupt the flow anyhow and anywhere any idiot feels like steering these things. Has to be freedom of the road with a 100+mph car just like we know and love, only running on magic juice, or forget it. Never mind that these vehicles kill 50,000 of us every year, mostly at speeds well above the 45 mph practical limit of the G-Wizzers.

Jeez. I get a little pissed sometimes with this sacrosanct American boy racer car culture shit.

The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

by spaceshaper at 4:45 PM on 04 Aug 2007
[ Parent ]

boy racer

That doesn't bother me space, because that's not where I was going. I was looking at the car from the standpoint of market acceptance, today.

The top G-Whiz model will carry two people at a top speed of 45 MPH for 40 miles of mixed driving.

That may be sufficient for those who commute smaller distances and don't need to get on the freeway, but ...

In a sense it's good news because we know that we can drive them if we need to, but on the other hand don't we have to accept that it is a niche vehicle at this point?

When a Prius can do 70+ MPH and 500 miles on a tank?

(I will laugh if my Prius makes me a 'boy racer' in anytime soon.)

by odograph at 7:16 AM on 05 Aug 2007

"American" car culture

BTW, it is probably wrong to point to the G-Whiz, a niche car in Europe, and then say that it should be a dominant car here. It's a niche car there too, right?

If it is an "American" car culture then Porsches, Ferfaris, Aston Martons ... must all be electric these days ;-)

by odograph at 7:25 AM on 05 Aug 2007

Euro-vision

Don't take it too seriously, Odo. I warned you it was a rant. You're quite right, the G-Wiz is absolutely a niche car in England - 900 of the 2000 sold are in London, marketed specifically as a way of circumventing the congestion charge, and if you read the testimonial page many of the buyers regard it as an alternative not to ICEV's but to public transport. So I don't suggest it as a miracle all-purpose "solution". What I am saying is that here is a serious, low cost (show me what else you can buy for eight grand - a 10-year-old diesel Jetta with some mechanical problems?) actual you-can-buy-one-right-now electric vehicle that actually works for real people, arguably in a specific urban environment but one which many (not all, but many) Americans can relate to, and the Grist electro-vehicle enthusiasts are palpably not interested. Why? Market acceptance? Isn't it time for the environmental lobby to actually have a little more impact on what the market is ready to accept? If we settle for images of off-road soil erosion and rally-style driving on public roads as virtually the only acceptable way for cars to be marketed then we deserve nothing better than SUV's and street racers. If we continue to put up with that crap, like we put up for years with cigarette advertising to minors, then as I wrote before, we're screwed.

As for Aston Martin and Ferrari - how many of the luxury European muscle-marques would still be around without being able to sell to the US market I don't know, but I suspect very few. Ford stepped in and bought Jaguar before it went belly-up. And I do know that the Europeans have vast experience in designing and manufacturing high-functioning low-cost low-energy vehicles for the mass market, from old-timers like the Fiat Cinquecento and the Renault 2CV to the more recent Mercedes SmartCar - ten years old in Europe and just making it to American shores. Yes, they're small - of itself an environmental benefit - less resources needed to make it and store it as well as propel it. And yes they're real cars, all the same. Add plug-in electric to that tradition and you've got some real potential, as the G-Wiz is showing. Worth paying attention to what's happening across the pond, guys.

The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

by spaceshaper at 10:16 AM on 05 Aug 2007

tangents

It's more of a tangent to argue whether "American" car culture is all that different from "world" car culture. I believe it's not (and that auto racing and sports cars developed in Europe nicely based on native interest, only immigrating here later).

It's another to talk about what we should push now. I push the Prius because it fits US lives even while doubling efficiency.

After that ... I expect electric motorcycles to make inroads next ... but only slowly ... at these gas prices.

by odograph at 11:06 AM on 05 Aug 2007

oh

as far as what "environmentalists should" ... how many are still feeling green in their Subarus?

At 22-23MPG (real world, non road-trip), they are only strictly average. They are not moving consumption or reducing greenhouse gases any more than they 'typical' car.

by odograph at 11:08 AM on 05 Aug 2007

Paradigm shift

Sixty years ago Renault commenced production of a lightweight inexpensive vehicle that functioned as family car, pickup and light tractor all in one. It could carry four adults in reasonable comfort at speeds of up to about 60 mph, it could open up to haul hay bales and calves around the farm, and could even be hooked up to a small plow for cultivating a peasant holding - an enormously popular general purpose design that continued in production for four decades. Many are still in use. The 2CV changed the face of peasant agriculture's access to markets in devastated post-war France and also functioned superbly as an urban vehicle. With its tight turning radius and light weight it could be squeezed and even manhandled into tiny parking spots. This was all done sipping minimal amounts of scarce and expensive fuel using a 2 HP (nominal power) gas engine - a level of power input that can easily be achieved with today's battery/electric technology. So how about looking at what PEV's can easily do (such as handy urban runabouts with acceptably limited range and speed) and selling that concept instead of accepting the status quo as a given and trying vainly to emulate the absurdly high bar of a contemporary gasoline engine system's power to weight ratio.

The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

by spaceshaper at 12:55 PM on 05 Aug 2007

Spaceshaper makes a point

It is possible to pull off a paradigm shift. The electric low speed cars we see today, however, are not likely to initiate one. They use the same technology that has been around for a hundred years. Same batteries, same electric motors, same steel shell. It would be like ushering in the telecommunications explosion using wind up phones.

I envision another vehicle that might. I need someone to hire me to design, build and test the prototype. I'm not a venture capitalist, I'm an engineer, damn it!

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

by biodiversivist at 2:38 PM on 05 Aug 2007

Sierra Club

When the median car at a Sierra Club meeting is a Subaru or small SUV, how far are you from your paradigm shift?

I mean, even the environmental wing isn't buying it (literally).

That's why I the (redundant) pragmatist talk about things that people can easily buy today (like bicycles and Priuses).

by odograph at 3:05 PM on 05 Aug 2007

Environmentalists need to scratch their status

itch just as a Hummer driver does. The green Subaru outback was their status symbol, being replaced by the Prius or diesel Jetta, to be replaced by...something even more environmentally benign, but cool.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

by biodiversivist at 4:01 PM on 05 Aug 2007

How far to the paradigm shift?

I don't know - I guess we could just wait until the end of cheap oil and global economic collapse forces it on us. Of course by then we might not have the resources left to salvage any kind of sustainable future for our kids and grandkids - but what the hell. As long as our status itches get good and scratched in the meantime.

I don't mean to be doomy-gloomy. But this is serious shit. If what I'm reading here on Grist is only half right, we can't afford to have our foresight end at our noses. Unless we're looking two and three and four steps ahead we're going to make some serious stumbles. Environmentalists are supposed to be the ones with the long vision. "Hey, I hear that Toyota is bringing out a just totally awesome PHEV next year!" doesn't cut it for that responsibility. So yes, paradigm shifts are absolutely going to be necessary if we're going to come out of this with our futures intact, and they won't just turn up of their own accord: it's actually going to be up to us to make them happen.

The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

by spaceshaper at 7:20 PM on 05 Aug 2007

what i'm sayin

"'Hey, I hear that Toyota is bringing out a just totally awesome PHEV next year!' doesn't cut it for that responsibility."

That's a perfect way to end this thread, about GM's purpose with the Chevy Volt.

by odograph at 7:24 AM on 06 Aug 2007

VOLT will have the greatest impact

I read a lot of bunk about the Tesla as if that low volume, high priced car could make the slightest dent in carbon emissions. It won't - there are 800 million gas cars and will be about 600 Teslas next year. Environmentalists have exaggerated the invisible impact of the Tesla
to such as extent that they have lost all credibility as realistic sorts. The Tesla has not advanced electric propulsion technology one iota. The VOLT and its siblings will be in force in the millions, while Tesla talks in terms of a few thousand cars, and for every typical driving day, the E-flex cars will avoid gasoline just as effectively as the Tesla. GM learned how not to build an electric car with the EV-1. Tesla has yet to learn the same lesson - without a practical , affordable battery, electric cars will remain the province of the wealthy who are looking to boost their green image. And Toyota's
patheically range bound plug-in Prius (with its pointless but expensive transmission) will be just as big a flop as the EV-1 and their own Rav4 electric.

by theBike45 at 9:44 PM on 08 Aug 2007

eGo beats Tesla, Volt, and all that jazz

I just bought my bride an eGo all-electric commuter scooter last weekend and she has come home beaming every day this week. Today she had an offsite meeting that would have entailed taking the car last week; instead she just hopped on the eGo and zipped off to the meeting. We're charging it for the first time now. I found one of the milk crates that counted as furnishings in college and ziptied it to the back and so she has storage capacity too.

The 5% Project

by JMG at 9:52 PM on 08 Aug 2007

Prius vs VOLT and Toyota PR BS

While one could argue that the Prius hybrid is an OK (but hardly state of the art) design, no one would ever design a plug-in hybrid to resemble the Prius, as Toyota is doing, or I should say, not doing, since they aren't actually designing anything. The only conceivable reason why Toyota would jerry-rig their Prius into plug-in format is because otherwise GM's VOLT would beat them to market.
Regardless of which battery type Toyota ultimately selects, Toyota execs recently indicated that the electric driving range of the Prius will be "less than 20 miles" and possibly as little as 10 miles. That unimpressive figure has caused many EV/plug-in proponents to become disillusioned with Toyota once again. Chris Paine, director of "Who Killed the Electric car?" had nothing good to say about Toyota's plug-in, while praising GM's upcoming VOLT as an ambitious effort that would make a big difference in carbon emissions.
The General Motors VOLT platform, which will have Chevy, Saturn and Opel versions by late 2009 and 2010, is the plug-in of the future, with an electric driving range of over 40 miles. Totally electric beyond the battery pack (with a 15 to 40 year lifespan), it is the ultimate in flexible and modern modular architecture, in which major components, or modules, that are likely to change over time are independent and isolated from modules less likely to change. Thus the VOLT derives all its power solely from the battery pack, while the component that recharges that battery pack is isolated and independent, and can thus be easily swapped for another energy source, should it prove more efficient and/or environmentally sound.
The sole power source used to operate the VOLT is electricity,
making the VOLT truly an electric car, but one whose electricity
can be supplied by any number of different sources. Therein lies the
enormous flexibility and modularity of the VOLT design.
The Toyota plug-in, on the other hand, will always be what it now is, an inefficient and inadequate plug-in design. There simply is no way to disentangle the electric/ICE interdependencies, or even to eliminate the pointless but expensive automatic transmission.
Quite simply, the Prius plug-in is an attempt to steal GM's thunder by cobbling together an inappropriate plug-in design. Toyota's distribution of "test cars" to their customer nations have no purpose save garnering widespread publicity, which they did. No automaker needs to"test" the plug-in concept, least of all Toyota, which had a five year history with plug-in electric Rav 4s. Notice that GM did not publicly test a plug-in. Rather than wasting time and effort on such a pointless enterprise, they started building one instead.
Toyota claims that no automaker can build an affordable plug-in with a 40 mile battery range. Bob Lutz, project manager of the VOLT and No 2 man at GM, says that he can. Toyota might think about removing useless but expensive components from their plug-in
(like that needless transmission) before they make any claims about
costs.
The VOLT will cost less than $30,000 and is constructed of lightweight composite materials. It also is a very attractively styled vehicle that even non-treehuggers can love. It will bury the Prius plug-in. I am quite certain of that.
Those interested in seeing what a modern plug-in car will look like can do so by visiting www.gm-volt.com The information on THAT (non-GM) website is guaranteed to not misinform.

by theBike45 at 9:53 PM on 08 Aug 2007

Frankly

The Tesla Roadster won't individually make much impact. However it's more of a proof of concept.

As is, you still have a general public which believes electric cars.

Are golf carts, all of them.
Are too expensive.
Can't refuel fast enough, so we need to do hydrogen.

Tesla blows #1 out of the park with it's 0-60 of 3.9 seconds.

Thats what it was built for.

-David Ahlport

by GreyFlcn at 1:32 AM on 09 Aug 2007
[ Parent ]

That said

As far as I know the Volt won't be out in any sufficient volume until 2011.

http://greyfalcon.net/volt

-David Ahlport

by GreyFlcn at 1:34 AM on 09 Aug 2007
[ Parent ]

vapor

When you compare current products to "vaporware," the vaporware tends to look good - on paper.

Heck, imaginary products always beat real ones ... it's so easy to invest those "cloud castles" with all the features we want.

by odograph at 4:56 AM on 09 Aug 2007

Volt design

The Volt design is the thing, not the Volt.

The Volt has double the power that a real green economy car needs. And all the different versions, especially the hydrogen fuel cell version, are distractions that tend to destroy GM credibility, not that they have any left after the EV-1 assasination.

A serial plugin hybrid with 40 mile range and a very efficient backup generator. All automakers know that design is the best, the greenest, and would put them in first place fairly quickly.

Why won't they manufacture it? The US government (Cheney) would make sure their cars were no longer imported to this market. Why don't US automakers manufacture this ultimate design? They are really oil companies, diguised as auto companies,mainly interested in continuing to sell as much oil as they can.

Once Cheney is deposed will these vehicles be mass produced? We'll see.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

by amazingdrx at 6:01 AM on 09 Aug 2007

Imaginary Products

When you compare current products to "vaporware," the vaporware tends to look good - on paper.
Heck, imaginary products always beat real ones ... it's so easy to invest those "cloud castles" with all the features we want.

Thats why for now, the best option is to promote

Bikes, Walking, Public Transportation etc
Clean Diesels
Hybrids
Early Adopters of Electric Cars (Such as the Tesla Roadster, and the Phoenix SUVs)

___
Certainly the last two, which are to be on the roads smoking tires in the next 2 months is soon enough not to be called "vaporware".

___

But really though the point that has to be made is that Hydrogen and BioFuels are not, and should not be the long term solution.

They shouldn't even be on the table.

-David Ahlport

by GreyFlcn at 6:14 AM on 09 Aug 2007
[ Parent ]

promised

I think I'd draw a stricter line ;-), because some of the things on your promotion list are not yet shipping (in California).

But other than that, yeah.

("amazing" the verb "has" should not be associated with the "Volt" which "has not.")

by odograph at 7:13 AM on 09 Aug 2007

Well the other catch to be made

However,
Even though both are currently vaporware.

There is a distinction to be made between:

Parallel Plugin Hybrids
Series Plugin Hybrids
Much much more complex than conventional gasoline cars
Much much less complex than conventional gasoline cars

Thats about the only solid benefit I can currently credit the Volt with.

It's a series plugin hybrid design with a highly visible company to make it seem more real.

-David Ahlport

by GreyFlcn at 8:04 AM on 09 Aug 2007
[ Parent ]

only benefit?

Nope. The series plugin can use full power on battery alone. Parallel can only use partial power on battery alone. The hymotion prius only cruises at 25 mph on batteries.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

by amazingdrx at 6:34 PM on 10 Aug 2007

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