Google tries to kickstart an energy revolution

Google.org funds V2G demonstration projects

Posted by David Roberts at 11:49 PM on 18 Jun 2007

Sweet mama! Google.org is going to give vehicle-to-grid technology a much-needed boost, to the tune of $10 million.

The company is going to modify six cars, a mix of Toyota Priuses and Ford Escape hybrids, with batteries that can draw juice from the grid and feed juice back in. The promise of this technology is that if it spreads, it will enable distributed electricity storage that can smooth spikes in electricity demand without expensive new generation plants. That means less new dirty coal. Every energy wonk I know has high hopes around V2G.

And Google's innovative philanthropy has just the combination of smarts, cultural cachet, and brass balls to get things rolling.

The batteries they're using are from A123 Systems, the hot-shit name in next-gen lithium ion hybrid batteries right now, ~~the same outfit that's supplying the batteries for the Tesla roadster~~ [oops, that's wrong -- Tesla's making its own batteries; A123 is working with GM and some other companies].

I have a feeling V2G is going to be the spark that starts a cascade of inventions around energy storage, energy efficiency, and smart grids. This could be the moment historians mark as the starting gun. Larry Brilliant is living up to his name again.

Here's a short video about the project:

For story: Google tries to kickstart an energy revolution
17 Comments | Post a Comment

Gee, can they spare that?

Th idea that spending $10millon will be able to "jump start" anything is totally absurd.
And a vehicle to grid technology is both unneeded and silly. Non-dispatchable power sources like wind can be made controllable via General Compression, Inc., if one is stupid enough to
want to build wind turbines and desecrate the environment for the sake of insignificant amounts of power.

by theBike45 at 4:05 AM on 19 Jun 2007

Plug-in Hybrids with Vehicle-to-Grid

As a devotee of conservation and tech solutions thereto it pains me to throw cold water on ideas like this one. But...
Grid-to-battery-to-grid energy conversion is not 100% efficient.
viz:
Charger/inverter efficiency AC-DC <100% (it gets warm)
Battery charge efficiency <100% (it gets warm)
Battery discharge efficiency <100% (it gets warm)
Charger/inverter efficiency DC-AC <100% (it gets warm)

In my just-invented new age math: 4 x <100% = <<100%

And don't get me started on battery wear-and-tear from all those extra charge-discharge cyles!

Now maybe we could save a few shekels with peak pricing of electricity. And maybe we could shave peak demand (fewer power stations). But does it all add up? I confess I don't know. But I like my Prius the way it is for now.

by crotchety at 8:19 AM on 19 Jun 2007

Re: new math

In that case all we need to do is invent an AC battery and we'll cut the losses in half!

by Matt G at 9:01 AM on 19 Jun 2007
[ Parent ]

Unwarrented hysteria

As a devotee of conservation and tech solutions thereto it pains me to throw cold water on ideas like this one. But...

Congratulations, you just discoverd the second law of thermodynamics.
That said, name me one source of energy storage which doesn't pay a steeper penalty.

Furthermore these new batteries get about 40 years worth of chargelife, that we know of.
AltairNano keeps getting more and more charge cycles so it's hard to tell.

Frankly, with new lithium batteries the car will fall to pieces before the battery does.

PG&E's has already set up a program to purchase these batteries for utility storage.
http://blogs.business2.com/greenwombat/2007/06/photo_gree ...

by GreyFlcn at 10:59 AM on 19 Jun 2007
[ Parent ]

Actually come to think of it

This might be an even better use of the batteries.

Run em down in electric cars, and then sell them to the utility for grid-to-grid.

by GreyFlcn at 11:03 AM on 19 Jun 2007
[ Parent ]

Cool part about this

They don't even need to be electric plugins for this

They could be hybrid batteries.

And by placing them at substations they'd have plenty of area to put em all, and use them in a distributed fashion.

by GreyFlcn at 11:25 AM on 19 Jun 2007
[ Parent ]

80% reduction in gasoline use nationwide?

The big potential here is not the jump from 41 mpg to 74 mpg, but rather the fact that 80% of all driving is less than 35 miles per day, within the range of the old electric vehicles of the '90s. Just combine those batteries with current hybrid technology, and your gasoline engine wouldn't even turn on but maybe once a month, when you drive more than 35 miles that day. Most driving would be powered by the plug in your garage, but you'd have unlimited range via the hybrid engine when you need it. Cars would primarily be recharged at night when there is excess generating capacity. What would an 80% drop in gasoline useage do to the price of gas?Check it out @ pluginamerica.com.
Questionauthority
www.solaroneveryroof.com

by Questionauthority at 11:56 AM on 19 Jun 2007

Plug-in Hybrids with Vehicle-to-Grid (2)

GreyFlcn: Sorry about my bout of unwarrented (sic) hysteria. I'm just about calmed down now.

On reflection I guess what bugs me is the idea of me as an individual sucking, say, 10kWh out of the grid at night , only to turn around and put back in, say, 6kWh during the day; the rest going up as heat. Then I'm to regard this as an unqualified "good".

I guess it's just an emotional view rather than a technical one. We hysterics tend to be that way.

Cheers!

by crotchety at 1:29 PM on 19 Jun 2007

Oink, oink

Why is it that Google has to pig up everything? I mean, they do everything except innovate in their field of search.

They are worse than Microsoft!

I can't wait for the next generation of open source searchware to unseat them.

J. Bailo Participant Texeme.Construct()

by jabailo at 1:33 PM on 19 Jun 2007

If by worse

If by worse, you mean worse at hanging onto their money, or charging people money.

Then yes, they are worse than Microsoft.

by GreyFlcn at 1:41 PM on 19 Jun 2007

"Dude ..."

James Kunstler, whom many love to despise, does an acerbic bit on Google; he apparently gave a talk there and was put off by the young millionaires' informal style of dress and by (what he considered) their hubris. According to Kunstler, he got only comments and no questions about his "Long Emergency" spiel, and the comments boiled down to "Dude, we've got technology."

He talks about this as being emblematic of Americans' persistent tendency to equate energy and technology.

Save your community: Cut greenhouse gas emissions 5% per year.

by JMG at 2:00 PM on 19 Jun 2007

Sorry about that, Dave

I think I'm the one that misled you about the Telsa roadster. My memory, she ain't what she used to be.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

by biodiversivist at 11:57 PM on 19 Jun 2007

I ride a plug-in hybrid everyday

The bike, consisting of hundreds of machined steel and aluminum parts cost $170, the exact same price as a single battery pack. Think about that. All we need now is mass production.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

by biodiversivist at 12:05 AM on 20 Jun 2007

Flatlined markets - why participate?

Biodiversivist wrote in the original post: Every energy wonk I know has high hopes around V2G.

Maybe that is because they do not know that when a market is made totally liquid, it flatlines -- and that a flatlined market provides no incentive to speculative participation.
images.thestreet.com/etf/etf/30413.gif

by Nucbuddy at 1:39 AM on 20 Jun 2007

n

GreyFlcn wrote: Run em down in electric cars, and then sell them to the utility for grid-to-grid. [...] by placing them at substations they'd have plenty of area to put em all, and use them in a distributed fashion.

Utilities already use batteries. They provide ~30-seconds of backup. Unlike the batteries that you are suggesting, they are cost-effective.

by Nucbuddy at 2:07 AM on 20 Jun 2007
[ Parent ]

n

Correction: David Roberts authored the original post.

by Nucbuddy at 2:10 AM on 20 Jun 2007

Hymotion

The Hymotion Prius plugin conversion uses the A123 battery pack. 12.5k extra for that, rumored to be 9.5k when introduced to the public.

The Ford Escape conversion is important too. why? Because government agencies like the US Forest service are required to buy american.

My guess is that the good people at google will use this tiny experiment to launch internet billing services for buying/selling renewable energy over the future renewable distributed generation and storage grid.

That will make google the new power company. Gleaning a few tenths of a cent from each kwh exchanged. Another mega billion revenue stream? yep.

Watch for broadband wireless internet that uses the power grid for a backbone and antenna to enable this necessary leap forward.

You will sell kwh into the grid, from your solar or wind system at home, or your vehicle batteries or your vehicle backup generator (fuel cell/microturbine running on your own home generated biogas sometime soon) into the grid, then buy some back to recharge your plugin vehicvle batteries at work or the shopping center or school or even inductive (the new tuned resonant induction system from MIT) strips under the highway.

Wisconsin electric is paying 22 cents per kwh for solar PV. A gold rush in distributed renewable power is coming and google will be opening up an assay office over the internet. That's my guess. Call me for details google I can work from home, hehey.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog

by amazingdrx at 5:09 AM on 20 Jun 2007

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