Staff Contributors
Guest Contributors

The sun in Spain falls mainly on the concentrated-solar plant in Seville

Man, that's the worst headline ever

Posted by David Roberts at 12:54 PM on 04 May 2007

Here's a short but fascinating BBC story about a ginormous (11MW, with plans for expansion) concentrated-solar power plant in Seville, Spain -- the first commercial concentrated-solar plant in Europe. Hundreds of mirrors reflect sunlight at a single point at the top of a tower, where the heat boils water for stream that drives a generator.

I'd only quibble with one thing:

Is it true that this power is three times more expensive than power from conventional sources? Yes, but prices will fall, as they have with wind power, as the technologies develop.

Also, a more realistic comparison is with the cost of generating power from coal or gas only at times of peak demand - then this solar system seems more attractive.

Any time a reporter mentions the cheapness of conventional power, it should be followed with an addendum: the power is cheap because the costs of particulate pollution and climate-warming emissions are not included. If they were, the price would double or treble. That is the "realistic comparison." The point can't be repeated often enough.

Oh, and PS, watch the video -- just aesthetically, this kind of plant is amazing.

Brilliant


I am focused on this technology and believe central tower receivers with heliostats are the cheapest form of solar steam and power.  The technology deployed in Spain is old technology due to information inertia and consensus (like the IPCC.   Making the power via high-intensity pv instead of thermal turbines and using smaller mirrors with shorter towers, plus some clever mechanical redesign using the new low-cost abilities of micro controllers then the cost will indeed be three times cheaper, and cheaper than coal sans externalities around the world.

CSP is nice, but it's limited.

I'm much more impressed with the advantages from thinfilm solar

For instance a 40MW thinfilm solar farm in Ontario Canada.
http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2007/4/26/290665 ...

_

In particular, today they announced a breakthrough in "quantum dots" for PV solar.
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2007/05/method_ ...

_

Quantum dots have the potential to double, triple, or "Seventuple" the number of electrons solar panels can capture per photon.
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060603/bob8.asp

_

Meanwhile thinfilm CIGS solar has the potential to reduce the manufacturing costs of solar panels by a factor of 10x.  Although the resulting panels only capture sunlight at about half the effeciency of silicon panels.

_

Combining these two technologies, and THAT will be your explosive growth in solar power.


-David Ahlport

Use Up The Earth


That's right...save the earth -- except when it comes to:

  1. Turning farmland over to bio-diesel and raising the price of food.

  2. Blanketing the plains with destructive wind turbines.

  3. Littering acres with expensive and negative ROI producing solar panels.


Jabailo

Littering acres with expensive and negative ROI producing solar panels

Thats Silicon solar.

Thinfilm CIGS panels are reaching a point which makes them look cheap compared to coal.

And if they could combine it with quantum dots, there'd be no holding it back.

_

Lastly, an ROI doesn't make much sense if you're comparing it to burning Coal with Carbon Capture and Sequestration  AND IGCC.

Since the cost of that would make even silicon solar look cheap.

-David Ahlport

Residential Solar

There's a lot of activity happening on a smaller scale as well, especially in residential use of photovoltaic cells.

According to some newly released research, PV solar panel use in homes is due to soar in the next five years:

The Growth of Photovoltaic Solar Energy for Home Use

But you all knew that, didn't you!

David


"cabled"?

Is this really possible?:

<<
The vision is of the sun-blessed lands of the Mediterranean - even the Sahara desert - being carpeted with systems like this with the power cabled to the drizzlier lands of northern Europe. A dazzling idea in a dazzling location.
>>

If "cabling power" can be done, practically, well then, it should be observed that there are plenty of "sun-blessed" areas in the southern US where a concentrated-solar-power project might be tried.  E.g., Imperial Valley, CA, which would be much better off converted from being an agricultural center -- it requires obscene amounts of channeled Colorado River water in order to get anything to grow in that desert -- to being a CSP generator supplying, say, San Diego.

As a point of cultural trivia, we might remember that back in the early Middle Ages, Islamic civilization was at its height, Arab scholars and scientists were preserving the achievements of classical (Greek) scholars and scientists, and building on them, and Western Europeans were relatively backward.  One of the sciences that the Arabs advanced is astronomy; another is optics; another is the mechanics involved in the movement of water and the harnessing of water power.  And so it is quaintly appropriate that one of the most brilliant centers of Arab culture in Spain, Seville, should now become the site of this CSP project, which involves all those disciplines.

Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.

Oddly

Oddly, I'm less interested in CSP in warmer regions

And more interested in geothermal in colder regions.

The idea being you get easy access to really cold water to run the opposite side of the T-low + T-high engine.

-David Ahlport

Sure, why not

Right, Grey Falcon, geo-thermal is in principle as promising as solar.  This planet's heat, beneath the surface, is immense.  But as with solar, the ways of collecting that energy, as currently understood, are obstructed by technological limitations.  Still, for those with vision, the ability to think outside the box, and the guts to make a huge initial investment, my feeling is they should go for it: "Build it, and they will come."

Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.
Well you see

I'm actually rather encouraged by what I've been seeing happening.

Low Temperature Geothermal
http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/ate/story?i ...

Large Geothermal Resources
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=1723 ...

Better geothermal exploration
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070406171041 ...

Raser Technology's big Geothermal push
http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/?p=1206
http://www.insidegreentech.com/node/1001
http://www.insidegreentech.com/node/1088
http://www.rasertech.com/media/movies/html/well_to_wheels ...

_

General overview for people who don't know Geothermal so well.
http://www.calenergy.com/html/aboutus4.asp

-David Ahlport

there has to be water?

Thanks, Grey Falcon, I did the CalEnergy virtual tour: not nearly so cute as the one in "Jurassic Park" -- but after all, John Hammond (Richard Attenborough) "spared no expense" -- , and yet very well done.

Probably people who understand these things, totally unlike myself, can comment on how sustainable it truly is, to be relying on drawing up the subsurface superheated water, then sending it back down again.

Whether or not this method of harnessing geothermal energy is sustainable, it illustrates what I mean when I say "in principle," vs. "inside-the-box thinking."  The heat is really there, the magma is really there (and that is in the mantle, I think, not the core, which is what the CalEnergy tour says).  The superheated water is as it were an accidental by-product of the conditions of Earth's crust and mantle, which happens to be currently utilizable.  And absolutely, that resource should be carefully managed and utilized.

But really, when we say "geothermal," we should not be restricting ourselves to talking about the superheated water.  We should be talking about the magma itself.  We should be engineering some energy collection device that can be thrown down the throats of volcanoes.

Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.

Marry CSP and Geothermal

Oddly, I'm less interested in CSP in warmer regions

And more interested in geothermal in colder regions.

The idea being you get easy access to really cold water to run the opposite side of the T-low + T-high engine.

I think you might have that equation reversed. CSP stirling systems combined with a geoexchange (geothermal) heat sink should be MORE efficient in cold climates.

Using CSP systems capable of combined heat and power applications you have a heat source for your house/business/whatever.

Now presuming that it's summer day and you have sufficient piping in the ground you dump your excess heat into the ground from both the house and the stirling unit. Plus you get that hot tub real hot.

At night you aim your stirling unit at the sky and draw the reduced load you need by reversing the thermal flow using the ground as a source and the sky as a sink.

Here's the fun part. In the winter you collect less power during the day and shunt more heat towards your sink(geo). At night you pump heat from your geo-source into your house and still have energy to extract from the stirling engine due to the high T-low + T-high difference due to hot ground, very cold night.

In California I couldn't use all the extra heat. In Chicago the waste heat from a solar-stirling unit gives you double duty as house heating and extra winter power. If any solar PV system could beat that kind of power throughput I'd like to see it.

Put the Carbon Back

Except that you can't

Except that you can't combine a stirling dish with anything.

You'd need to make some sort of elaborate trough based solar.

And past that, you'd also need to get the snow off of the panels, which could easily break curved mirrors.

-David Ahlport

please elaborate.....

[new] Except that you can't

Except that you can't combine a stirling dish with anything.

You'd need to make some sort of elaborate trough based solar.

And past that, you'd also need to get the snow off of the panels, which could easily break curved mirrors.

The link I gave was for a company in Germany. It doesn't snow in Germany? Also they combine that stirling unit with everything. Infinia seems to agree that stirling engines can provide combined heat and power. Nobody says nothing about snow limitations; the mirrors don't have to be Hubble quality.

Last time I checked stirling engines as a class only care that there is sufficient difference between the high temp and the low temp within their operating parameters. Depending on where your cold loop goes to it can go to the air, water, house or ground. As long as you can dump the heat what's the difference where it goes?

As I see it using the ground as your cold side as the ground heated up your electricity generation would zero out but until t1=t2 you would be pumping heat into the ground. Heat that could be used for power minutes later simply by using crossover valves in your heat exchangers and pointing the dish away from the sun.

So where's the problem?

Put the Carbon Back

Heliostats as death-rays

Something for the new kids.

http://people.linux-gull.ch/rossen/solar/deathray.html

The key to heliostats, like all solar collectors, is cost per square meter aperture and system efficiency.  A mirror is 96% efficient.

You are not logged in. Thus, you cannot post a comment. If you have an account, log in. If you don't have an account, well, by all means go make one! Meet you back here in five.
sign in
Search Gristmill
Subscribe
  • subscribe via RSSStay updated with the Gristmill RSS feed.
  • Add to My Yahoo!
  • Subscribe with Bloglines
  • Subscribe in NewsGator Online
  • Subscribe in Netvibes
  • Subscribe in Google
Using Gristmill
  • What is Gristmill?
  • Posting rules
The comments of Gristmill users reflect the opinions of those individuals only, and do not necessarily reflect the viewpoints of Grist, its staff, its board members, their psychotherapists, or their aestheticians. Got it?

Gristmill is powered by Scoop.

ADVERTISING POLICY


About Grist | Support Grist | Job Board | Archives | Grist by Email | RSS | Podcast
Gristmill Blog | In the News | Ask Umbra | Muckraker | Victual Reality | 'Tis the Season | The Grist List | The Bottom Line



Grist: Environmental News and Commentary
a beacon in the smog (tm) ©2008. Grist Magazine, Inc. All rights reserved. Gloom and doom with a sense of humor®.
Webmaster | Sitemap | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Trademarks