I assume the company is betting that energy prices will be sky-rocketing and consumers aren't that motivated to improve the efficiency of their homes. Not a very risky gamble. Thus, they can calculate exactly how much they have to charge to make a profit. Consumers are enticed by the stable rate. Though it is not clear if the actually lock your rate at a set dollar amount or whether their rate is always a certain amount below the local utilitity's rate.

Not a bad idea...

UNLESS... someone creates and manufactures a less-expensive photovoltaic system in the next decade or so. The consumer purchasing current technology will still be paying for it years from now while everyone else enjoys a better system.

AND... what if consumers realize they can save even more by upgrading to energy-efficient lights and appliances? Will the company fail if demand from each installed system drops?

BUT... if a person had an electric car or SUV, they could lock in the price of their energy for transportation. This makes the idea more appealing.

Sounds like a personal decision. No catch, but be very very careful when signing a contract for 25 years of electricity.

Another thing is they are assuming really low installation costs, lower than company currently can install for. Again the plan is they will develop and especially easy to install system. In short their business plan:

1. Get customers by offering low prices - below current cost of technology
   
2. Raise money on those orders
   
3. Develop technology that will let you fufill those orders profitably

How much their rental is below current energy prices is also not clear, and will affect interest. Though you are banking on rates going up and benefiting from stable rates (I think they do state that prices are fixed not pegged to utility rates.

I wonder about their profit. I assume the general plan is steady income for their systems over the lifetime.

Also I'm not sure if you are paying a fixed rent based on expected performance or actual performance. If the former, the customer is going to have the incentive to optimize their system performance, if the latter, Citizenre is going to want to make sure the systems keep performing.

You can now expect a representative to show up on the blog to attack my post as they usually do at other eco-forums where they promote themselves.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

Thank you for the link. It clearly looks like a scam. How can someone sell something they haven't even manufactured? Why would someone give them any money for a product not yet developed? And the words "multi-level marketing" should trigger numerous alarms. Sounds like they want to pocket some money and transfer responsibility for delivering the goods to a bunch of poor schmoes who thought they could make a living by selling green energy.

And then there is the issue of where they get materials. How can they even line up investors when they can't actually predict the cost of manufacturing their product? Shouldn't they have to set up a pilot facilty? There ought to be a law against this sort of thing.

Anyway...

I'll continue looking for an affordable and real -- rather than imaginary -- photovoltaic system, one shown to be reliable and cost-effective. And I'll find a way to finance it myself. Never did like the notion of renting home infrastructure... appears to cost more in the long run. Besides, I would prefer a system that permits me to disconnect from the grid so I have power if a utility line is knocked down. The system described above would not allow it.

Makes me wonder - if their product is so good and their delivery so sound, why shouldn't customers just wait until the supposed factory is up and running to sign up? Then you could see if their business model is going to pan out. Waiting 1 years to lease something whose "benefit" will last ~20 years, seems prudent (ignoring for a moment the effects of delayed support in more substantial PV installers). How much is my electricity rate going to change in that timeframe? What's the rush?

Multi-level marketeers don't like to admit that, but it's true. One such marketeer did admit to me that  "only about 5% of people" can make money at it, because most ordinary people suspect it's a fancy phrase for pyramid scheme.

They're right.

The CitizenRE controversy has been burning up in the web for months, with quite a few strong discussions in the month of February.

My Daily Kos discussion (CitizenRE: "clean-energy vaporware"???) cites a number of these discussions.  

From that discussion (see links there):

There are critiques that CitizenRE is nothing more than pyramid scheme. Looking at CitizenRE's compensation plan (and its cascading path toward compensation) and listening to xxxx explanations of it sort of gives substance to those concerns.

What are some of the other concerns, well documented and discussed in the links:

• CitizenRE promises to start installations in September, yet does not yet have a manufacturing plant -- in fact, has yet to announced where the plant will be.
  
• Plants take at least a 12-18 months to get up and running. CitizenRE is claiming to use a new process and new materials. Certification and quality assurance on such new materials would make this a longer process.
  
• While CitizenRE claims $650 million in financing, there is no indication of that financing other than their claims.
  
• That claimed efficiencies for mounting solar systems are not believable.
  
• That there is a global shortage of key materials that CitizenRE is stating doesn't affect them.
  
• That CitizenRE is signing up customers and marketeers, without establishing an installation and maintenance infrastructure.
  
• That ... well ... so on ...

For me, the analyses above more or less dampened the lingering interest in CitizenRE. As much as I'd like to believe otherwise, it really does look to be too good to be true.
...

And, in regards to CitizenRE, the question is what is the importance? What is the problem if 7727 dreamers (and some Kossacks) have signed up for a dream?  

Some dealers are already commented that customers are backing out of deals, saying that they are going with CitizenRE.  If it does not deliver, will CitizenRE have taken business out of the solar market for months or years?

• If it is overpromising (and, well, you take an honest look -- I think that is a fair description, myself) and fails to deliver on these promises, will CitizenRE's failure to deliver give a bad name to solar energy and hurt the developing market?  
  
• Could CitizenRE and impressions of it hurt efforts to provide tax and other incentives for solar electric installations? After all, if CitizenRE can do it so cost-effectively in competition with simple utility prices, why should the taxpayer put a penny into this?
  
• In other words, the issue with CitizenRE is not just between it and 7727 impassioned dreamers, but it is the potential implications for all of us if its promises are simply that.

As Wired wrote: "Many in the renewable energy community are just watching and waiting; skeptical on the surface and perhaps, deeper down, yearning for it to all be true."

Oh ... do I ever want this to work ... a chicken in every pot ... that is boiling in the water heated by the electricity from solar panels on every roof.

Please... make sure you point out every case where you are ahead of the crowd so we can applaud your superiority.

Say... I've been trying to catch up on the issue of the demise of the European honey bee in America and the threat to our native pollinators that might pull the rug out from under a large segment of our agricultural economy. Can you direct me to a website where this is being discussed at length? THANKS!

I signed a contract, mostly because this is the only way I could conceivably hope to get a solar power system on my roof. I'm 25 and just starting out, so I don't have the credit history or the income to secure a home equity loan to buy a $20,000 system. It seems that the only people who can afford PV systems are retirees.

I've already weatherproofed my house and switched out all my bulbs and I'm buying more efficient appliances as the ones that came with my house start to go. But I want to do more.

I haven't signed up to be a reseller or anything like that. I'll wait and see, but I won't give them any money till I get legal assurances that I'm getting a system installed. The worst that can happen is that they fold, and all I'm out is the couple hours I read over the stuff I've already signed.

My comment was to David Roberts, a staff writer / blogger at one of the top environmental news / discussion sites ...

Seems to me that Roberts (yes, David, assume that you're reading this) might have spent a minute doing a search re CitizenRE. He would have come across any number of the serious discussions of this.  I used my posting as an example ... but also clearly suggested/stated that there were lots of great discussions out there. And, CitizenRE has been advertising (heavily) on the web for something like 4 months ...

Now, for you, mea culpa -- I was not (absolutely NOT) suggesting anything about you or commenting to you.  Apologies that you took my comment as an insult to you.

RE bees, you might want to check out Vince CA's excellent discussions ... this, 4 Feb, was the second of two: Pollinator Sunday, Pt 2: Mason Bees.  Everything else aside (your annoyance or anger at me), those were beautifully written, informative pieces by someone with a deep knowledge and passion. Well worth the 5-10 minutes to read.

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!! to Energize America .

I wrote a three part series on CitizenRE, available here:

Part 1 of 3

Solar Kismet

I stand corrected and apologize. I cannot justify or defend my comments. I don't know what I was thinking at the time. I'm fortunate that you politely responded rather than perpetuate an unpleasant cycle.

Furthermore, thank you VERY MUCH for the bee information.

And, those essays re the bees are truly amazing.

DAVID -- I was rather shocked to search Grist and see that this was the only mention of CitizenRE here. Perhaps a Grist writer should take the time to take a look into it. Let your readers know whether it is great, a fraud, or ... well ... something else.

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!! to Energize America .

Best regards to everyone,
DC Miller

http://ecoboulder.blogspot.com/2007/02/citizenre-proof-by ...

D Miller

This is nothing but a scam. You do the math - $500 per person, 5000 deposits = $2.5 million. These guys are going to take a nice ride on a bunch of blind hopeful people. There is much to be said for "If it sounds too good to be true ..."

(This pulled from CitizenRE's customer registration page)

7.2. Security Deposit

A Security Deposit is required of the Customer upon approval of the REnU's engineering design. The Security Deposit is $500 for all REnU systems with a nameplate capacity of 5 KWp DC or less, and for REnU systems with a nameplate capacity larger than 5 KWp DC it is $500 plus 10 cents per Wp DC for every Wp DC greater than 5 KWp DC. --snip--

As for the effect of global warming on the lifecycles of plants and animals, we might predict that animals such as bees will adapt to remain in hibernation longer in spite of the warm-weather cues; and on the other hand, that plants will be prompted by early warm-weather cues to begin blooming earlier than is normal for them.

In defense of David Roberts' journalism, I think he and the other writers at Grist do an admirable job of exploring and researching interesting stories in countless places.  I agree, one might have thought that DR would have judged the CitizenRe story to be of importance, and so it is surprising that it took him longer than others to get around to it.

But so what?  That sort of thing happens in journalism all the time.  E.g., the NYTimes's public editor, Byron Calame, was trying to make a brouhaha out of the Times's failure to follow up on the Washington Post's brilliant and sensational reporting about the Walter Reed Hospital scandal.  He suggested that the explanation was chagrin: the Times hated admitting being scooped by its rival.  But really, their own explanation makes perfect sense: all their Washington staff were already deeply engaged in researching other stories.

Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.

Lesson One:

Never underestimate the power of a polite person who responds with kindness when he/she encounters hostility.

Lesson Two:

I forgot what Lesson Two was... but I'm sure there was something I learned... besides a little more about bees.

My comment was in frustration because I come to Grist because they are, writ large, doing a good (very) good job.  

Grist is on my 'blogroll'.  I frequently send people to the Skeptics guide. Etc ... I agree with you.

Perhaps not as politely stated as it could have been but the point remains ... that hopefully can be a lesson for the future. A few seconds on Google and the controversy re CitizenRE would have been unveiled.  That would have enabled a more nuanced comment about CitizenRE than what started off this line.

RE DCMiller --

There are serious implications, as per some of the points I made above, about what is going on with CitizenRE.  As I wrote in my writeup, I hope it works -- I hope that every EcoPrenour ends up as a multimillionaire with CitizenRE solar panels covering every rooftop in site.  That would be wonderful ... but there are serious questions about whether this dream can be realized.  There is harm done by CitizenRE if it fails to deliver on its promises -- which is already occurring, as promised September 2007 deliveries are now being promised for??? 2008????  Again, SolarKismet's discussions are extremely good -- highly recommended. (And, both he and I have links to other discussions of CitizenRE.)

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!! to Energize America .

On Grist, and reporting everything that ought to be reported: If our friends in Seattle do not think it would clog the works, they might encourage readers to send them references to new subjects, from not the standard sources, which they have not noticed.  I was under the impression that readers already do that, in fact.

Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.

They are promising delivery in one year (or less) from a factory that still not only hasn't been built, it doesn't have a location or a permit for construction, using an 'innovative' new process that is not in operation anywhere else in the world.

Etc.

Again, draw your own conclusions.

Common sense is an oxymoron...

While many critics made fun of Edison for trying to create a light bulb, and failing 2000 times, he remarked " I haven't failed to create a light bulb 2000 times, I have discovered 2000 ways not to."

DC Miller

No doubt this is a rather unusual offering, but heck, who makes an instant decision on anything involving an investment of thousands, so what is the harm to register and reserve a system when it is available?

Not the usual way of doing business, but being in a venture capital industry, I know investors often want to see proof of a viable marketing plan and demand for installations before they will release funds, so perhaps that is the scenario here.

With so little information available, and not even a plant which has broken ground, perhaps it would have been best to wait until that was at least started, or perhaps contracted before unleashing the hype associated with this offer. Bad strategy in my opinion, unless you look at it from companies viewpoint. Since no one is getting paid a dime until installation, company is getting a ton of free marketing and advertising from these so called ecopreneurs and most will be long gone a year from now, so company gets a huge jump at no cost to them. Sure makes the plan look better with no marketing expenses to deal with saving millions over conventional introduction of products or services.

Enviro-Bricks.com

www.PRIVACY-ADVOCATES.INFO