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Edible Media: In seitan's lair

Why the vegetarian critique of meat-eating should make meat-eaters squirm

Posted by Tom Philpott at 1:29 PM on 28 Jan 2007

Edible Media takes an occasional look at interesting or deplorable food journalism on the web.

It's been a rough couple of months for meat eaters. In late November, the FAO issued a startling report claiming that livestock production emits fully 18 percent of global greenhouse gases -- more than all the automobiles in the world.

The Bloodless Revolution

Then out comes a big book: The Bloodless Revolution by British scholar and proud "freegan" Tristram Stuart. The book seeks to trace the "cultural history of vegetarianism from 1600 to modern times."

The existence and long history of vegetarianism should make us meat-eaters squirm a bit. Who are we to make other sentient creatures suffer and die painful deaths, so we can gain our sustenance in a world with many non-animal choices on offer?

It's not inconceivable that our meat habit could one day seem monstrous. As Laura Miller put it in her review of Stuart's book on Salon:

We, like the people of the early 1800s, could be living through a period of slow but profound ideological change. ... In the future, right-thinking people might look back at us meat eaters with the same disapproval we heap on those who considered slavery acceptable 200 years ago.

Few would deny that out current mode of meat production is monstrous. The dirty business of slaughter takes place off-stage, so to speak. Most Americans blithely fill up on meat without knowing or caring about what goes on in fetid feedlots or brutal (for workers and animals alike) slaughterhouses.

In his elegant review of the Stuart book for The New Yorker, Steven Shapin brings up a bracing fact about U.S. meat consumption. Every year, the average American consumes 275 pounds of meat -- up from 238 in 1981.

That means the average American ingests three-quarters of a pound per day. When you account for vegetarians and people who eat meat only occasionally, that figure is even more breathtaking.

Worse still, other nations are following the the U.S. lead. Shapin informs us that in China, per capita meat consumption has surged from from 33.1 to 115.5 pounds since 1981. That's amazing.

Michael Pollan has made the point that explosive growth in meat consumption would not have been possible without the industrialization of farming. Essentially, when grain yields surged in the second half of the 20th century, prices tumbled and it began to seem economical to start feeding farm animals huge amounts of grain instead of grass. That in turn led to feedlots and vast centralized slaughterhouses, and the price of meat fell, turning it into a daily expectation rather than a luxury.

But if voracious meat consumption is related to the mechanization of agriculture and its marginalization from most people's lives, so might be vegetarianism. Shapin, in his New Yorker essay, makes a provocative point:

Those who kill animals in the course of their working day may quickly become habituated to it, and to dismiss this effect as mere desensitization effectively discounts great knowledge of animal death in favor of slight knowledge. Similarly, those who like to romanticize country people are frequently discomfited by their uncuddly ways with livestock. A major source of the sympathy with animal suffering that developed so strongly from the Enlightenment may well be the pattern of urbanization that removed so many of us from daily experience of how our food is produced. Why is it "natural" not to know very much about "nature"? [Emphasis in original]

The answer, then, might not be to ban meat outright (which, as relentlessly rising consumption patterns are telling us, is highly unlikely). Rather, it might be to revalue and spread the "experience of how our food is produced."

After all, the pre-Enlightment peasants who presumably treated their animals so unsentimentally didn't eat much meat. They respected it as a delicious, dense store of nutrients and learned to make it stretch, giving the world the immortal (I hope) art of charcuterie.

Moreover, a renewed, broad-based knowledge of where food comes from will reestablish something that vegetarians and vegans sometimes forget: that organic agriculture in any meaningful sense relies on diversified farming -- crops and livestock tended in close proximity.

But as a committed omnivore who is nevertheless appalled by feedlot agriculture and stunned by Americans' meat-eating gluttony, I've got nothing but respect for vegetarians and vegans.

A deal with seitan

Let us eat lettuce.

Speaking of vegans, I loved the article in last Wednesday's New York Times food section about Brooklyn vegan chef Isa Chandra Moskowitz.

While I'm not about to abandon butter, eggs, and cream in dessert-making, I have no doubt that her confections are excellent. Why? Because of this bit:

Moskowitz ... does not particularly like to talk about tofu. Ditto seitan, tempeh and nutritional yeast. "I think vegan cooks need to learn to cook vegetables first," she said last week during a cupcake-baking marathon. "Then maybe they can be allowed to move on to meat substitutes."

Amen. I don't mean to knock vegans; if anything, their prohibitions force them into paying more attention to cooking than their McDonald's-gorging peers. Yet anyone who's been served monstrosities like vegan Sloppy Joes can give Moskowitz a witness.

Read Ethicurean

I love the food blog Ethicurean, whose posters have such decidedly non-vegan handles as Butter Bitch, Dairy Queen, Omniwhore, and Miss Steak.

Anyone who wants to keep up with the blitz of food news/commentary must RSS this blog.

And I'm not just saying that because they've often commented favorably on my own work. (Full disclosure: I discovered Ethicurean through the egregious procrastination tactic known as egosurfing.)

Eat like an ape, get healthy

Nice column.

My favorite article this month is from the BBC: Going ape

What if humans cast aside processed foods and saturated fats in favour of the sort of diet our ape-like ancestors once ate? Nine volunteers gave it a go... and were glad they did so.

Being locked in the zoo and offered bananas to eat is the kind of extreme diet scenario to wake some of us screaming in the night. But that was how a group of volunteers opted to try to cut their blood pressure and cholesterol levels.

They set up home in a tented enclosure at Paignton Zoo, Devon, next to the ape house, in an experiment filmed for TV. The idea, says Jill Fullerton-Smith, who helped organise the trial, was that modern diets, often dominated by processed foods and saturated fats, cause costly health problems.

...[Nutritionist and dietician] Ms Garton looked for inspiration to the plant-based diet of our closest relatives, the apes, and devised a three-day rotating menu of fruit, vegetables, nuts and honey.

...With so much food bulk and plenty of calories the subjects did not go hungry - indeed most failed to finish their daily ration. And once they were over the withdrawal from caffeinated drinks and some foods, says Ms Garton, they enjoyed good energy levels and mood.

So the "moments of unhappiness and grumpiness" that the TV crew was primed to capture failed to happen. The proved to be a motivated group, although the one odorous side-effect from all that roughage couldn't be ignored.

Overall, the cholesterol levels dropped 23%, an amount usually achieved only through anti-cholesterol drugs statins.



Bart
Energy Bulletin
magnificent Pollan

I think Michael Pollan's essay in today's NYT Magazine is the best one I've read about nutritional science, food production and healthy eating.

Ped Shed Blog
Great story, Bart

Overall, the cholesterol levels dropped 23%, an amount usually achieved only through anti-cholesterol drugs statins.

Lesson: Eat real food and be healthy; or eat processed food and turn your health over to the pharmaceutical industry.

Victual Reality

UK Soil Association -- peak oil and agriculture

That's a dynamite essay by Michael Pollan. In case it disappears behind a paywall, look to another posting at the International Herald Tribune.

Just came across podcasts from the UK Soil Association conference which just concluded. The Soil Association is the organic agriculture body in Great Britain.

They took "peak oil" as their theme, and had the most over-subscribed conference in their history. (article).  

News that they might withhold the "organic" label from food that is shipped by air freight has hit the headlines (Guardian).

In California, this week's Eco-Farm conference of organic farmers had a peak oil keynote speaker (Richard Heinberg).  In a recent essay, Heinberg argued that many more farmers will be needed as energy becomes more expensive: Fifty Million Farmers.

Bart
Energy Bulletin

More meat but less beef?

or so the stat I last read indicated. More chicken probably. I agree, the factory meat business is horrific and vegans need to understand that farm animals are essential to non-industrialized farming.

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
Pollan's pieces

Bart Anderson wrote:  "That's a dynamite essay by Michael Pollan. In case it disappears behind a paywall, look to another posting at the International Herald Tribune."

Pollan also archives many of his pieces at his own website, thus preventing paywalls from hiding them.

Vegetarian Cooking


   Great posts!  But please let me defend vegetarian cooking.  If you're going to San Francisco (and are not part of a Yale singing group), you might look up some of the many different varities of Vegetarian restaurants in the Bay Area.  There are Japanese, Chinese (several different types), Vietnamese and local gourmet favorites such as Greens.

   In addition, you can try the vegetarian special at almost any Ethiopian restuarant (Yummm!!!), and there is of course Indian and Middle Eastern vegetarian food as well.

   And and and.... there are many different kinds.  When you diss the vegan sloppy joe (and I admit to liking that kind of thing once in a while (smile)), you are really criticizing the MacDonalds of vegetarian food, ie, industrialized.

   There are whole other worlds out there!!

   Even if you eat meat, you are limiting your diet if you don't try some of them once in a while!

   In Beijing the count of Chinese Vegetarian restaurants is running around 30 (hard to keep track), slow momentum, but there.

patrick

A new food-related website: Culinate.com

Here's another website to check out. It's fairly new and, I need to disclose, I will have some articles published on it, including a nice Q & A with Deborah Madison for those of you who like good vegetarian cooking or just like to eat good veggie dishes.  The wbesite's  focus is healthy, ethical eating.

Great article, but....

if you still think vegan food is that grainy stuff that made you want to puke you're stuck in the 1990s- the vegan food that is now part of the restaurant circuit in San Francisco, New York and other major cities blows completely rocks. Vegan cakes, ice cream, custards, meat substitutes, original creations that expand the culinary landscape, you name it. If you don't live in one of these cities don't worry, the plant-based revolution will reach you eventually!!!!

J.S.

P.S. I agree that Pollan's current article is by far his best- in fact, he was going steadily downhill until today.

Economic Illiteracy Harms The Planet! www.voicesofreason.info.

health, schmealth

I will readily admit it:  I don't really give a crap about eating right for my health.  If something makes me happy but might contribute to my premature death, I'm likely to eat it anyway, assuming we're talking about premature death that's still a ways away (and yes, I will regret this cavalier attitude when I am 60, but since women in my family appear to die of cancer at 60 or before regardless of virtuous lifestyle, I might as well enjoy life until then).

Ironically, I think this ends up meaning my diet is healthier than most, even leaving the vegetarian/omnivore issue aside.  I tend to like things that are healthy, although I do like the sloppy joe mix (and Gardenburger Riblets, and Quorn "chicken"--man, I'd die without those things!).  For the most part, I eat more "real" food than I would if I were counting calories or fat grams or carbs or whatever stupid thing.

So, i'm rambling, but I do have a point, which is that you shouldn't have too much respect for vegetarians, at least until you know what their strategy and reasoning is. :)

Balanced Diet, Anyone?

Right on, Willa.  Whatever happened to the concept of eating balanced meals?  Hey, it's your decision if you want to be a total Vegan, just lose the attutude with me - it just don't work.  

And what's this with the Global Warming tie-in?  Sure, cows burp methane, quite a bit of it.  What's next, the need to include methane from human farts?    The idea is that if we have less people, we would have less fart-methane, so that would be a good idea?  Oh, now you see the fallacy of the argment!

I have to admit I love Chinese food too, although I was quite disappointed that my favorite Szechuan dishes had tofu that was fried not only once but TWICE.  It just didn't seem too balanced to me.

Onward through the fog

Will....

a diet of coca-cola and skittles is vegan- of course, plant-based doesn't mean healthy and anyone who suggests it is out of their mind. There are meat eaters who eat healthier than vegetarians. But so what? If anything, it's the environmental effects that are the most relevant to Grist and on that dimension there is no comparison.

J.S.

Economic Illiteracy Harms The Planet! www.voicesofreason.info.

Global warming, meat

The tie-in has less to do with methane (which is a more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide) than the fact that meat production, as currently practiced, requires a lot of energy (read: fossil fuels).

Thanks for the Pollen link, Laurence. I loved An Omnivore's Dilemma, but still enjoyed this essay ("silence of the yams" aside). My rule of thumb is to avoid items that you could eat right away and contain more than two ingredients, except for bread.

While I'm definitely way, way on the vegetarian end of the spectrum (3/4 lb. of meat a day? Good god!), and, despite what the vegans say, it is a spectrum, I agree about the meat "substitutes." Tofu does not have the same properties as meat. A dish meant to contain meat was not meant to contain tofu, and vice versa. Make a nice saag paneer, don't try to make a vegetarian vindaloo. Make a nice stuffed tofu, don't put chicken in it! If that makes me a cooking snob, so be it.

Rule of thumb..

from way back: Never eat anything that's been advertised.  Hated when I had to give up Sam Adams, but the writing was on the tube.

The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.
Why do you eat meat?


Thanks once again Tom for your excellent coverage of the eco-food nexus!

I just want to jump in here quickly to add one item to this mix; something for everyone's consideration, that I think is unaccountably absent from the slow/eco - food discussion (as much my fault as anyone's, I guess...)

I became a vegan seven years ago for many of the reasons being articulated here. Basically, I realized that, as an environmentalist, I had a lot of explaining to do if I was going to eat animal products. I looked more closely and concluded that for a person living in an industrial society, eating animals on a regular basis is not supportable. Our diet is the one thing we have the most control over--we raise our food to our mouths with our own hands--and it's easier to have a profound environmental impact by cutting out animal products than it is by any other lifestyle means. For most people, cutting out driving is, as a practical matter, more difficult than cutting out meat, thanks to the physical layout of our built environments. (for now)

I was also looking to avoid the health impacts of a diet overflowing with fat and protein, and low on the good stuff.

So I just tried it. And I felt great.

But then a funny thing happened. I suddenly came to see an even more profound basis for veganism: reducing animal suffering. Freed from my dietary dependence on violence towards innocent animals, I suddenly saw that I had been rationalizing my meat eating for so many years. Even after visiting slaughterhouses and killing animals myself, I had gone on eating meat for years. It was only once I no longer had a psychological need to protect myself from the idea that these are suffering beings, just like me, that I was able to understand that clearly--and to find an even stronger reason for veganism. (And I'm not just talking about industrial agriculture. Something seems wrong with the idea that animals can be "humanely raised" only to be killed.)

Here's something I wrote about my veganism for my column a while back (disguised as a celebrity profile). My current thinking on veganism can be summed up thus:

I have four reasons for doing it:

1 - It is better for my body
2 - It is better for the planet
3 - It is better for other people
4 - It is better for the animals

There are always exceptions one can imagine about one or another of these points, or certain extenuating circumstances, but as a general way of being, I think it demands careful consideration by anyone trying to live a rational, conscious life.

Indeed, I think it demands that the question be turned around; it should not be "why are you vegan?" it should be "why do you eat meat?"


my books: The Coffee Book | Window Seat

I'll probably regret saying this,

but I can basically find no flaw in your reasoning, Gregory. The one area where I might take issue is that I have no particular problem with humane, small-scale animal operations. But perhaps you're right that my perspective on that would change if I went vegan for a while.

Basically, I think I'm like a lot of people -- I know I should go vegan. I know there's no good reason not to, and plenty of good reasons to do it. And yet ... I just don't. I can't really explain or defend it. But there it is.

grist.org

you don't need animals for sustainable agriculture

for the people above who argue that "sustainable" or "permanent" agriculture requires animal waste:

From personal experience the CSA I (and about 75 other "families") get our food from uses vegan agriculture.

I would also encourage people to look up:
Permaculture/Tree crops/Agroforestry/etc. which doesn't inherently rely on animal waste to maintain fertility

The Movement for Compassionate Living (out of the UK) advocates vegan, local, organic, tree-based agriculture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Compassionate_L...
www.mclveganway.org.uk/

And here is wikipedia on vegan gardening:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_organic_gardening

Can vegan, local, organic, tree-based(perennial) agriculture support ~6.5-9 billion people? No.
But if you work the math it will support more than animal-annual based agriculture for the long haul and has a host of other benefits.

Ethical meat-eating vs. veganism

(Thanks for the Ethicurean plug, Tom! Most appreciated)

Gregory: As an ex-vegetarian and friend of several vegans, I also agree mightily that if we could wave a magic wand and make the planetary population become herbivores, and or even just the United States, we would vastly improve public health and the environment. But we can't.

In the meantime, I think it's important to focus efforts where we can effect real change: getting people who do eat meat to eat less of it, and to really look at where what they're eating comes from. The big meatpackers and CAFO owners in this country go to great lengths to hide their disgusting, irresponsible animal-raising practices. When you show people these conditions, and then show them the small-scale alternatives that are available, most of them respond positively.  

Chew the right thing -- sustainable, organic, local, and/or ethical...SOLE food, for short.

Re: I'll probably regret saying this,

That's really very disappointing, David, especially considering that you are a Grist staff writer. Apathy is also the biggest problem the environmental movement faces. I'd hope someone such as yourself would be more concerned and willing to act on the urgent need for a vegan diet, both for environmental reasons and so as to not be responsible for the animal suffering that is inherent in all non-vegan diets (be they organic or inclusive of alternatively produced -so-called "humanely raised"- animal products). I hope you do regret having posted that comment, and that you and everyone else who isn't a vegan but likes to consider themself an environmentalist, and a compassionate person, will duly consider this.

Mary
Magic Wand

Indeed, there are no wands to be waved, and it's critical to take practical steps right now rather than wait around for a sudden magical transformation, but it's also important to have a vision to work towards -- something that informs the day-to-day practical steps.

It's like compact flourescents... by themselves they're not going to address the massive structural energy problems our civilization faces, but right now they are a practical step that everyone can take. They are meaningful. But they're not the end of the path; just the first step.

So you work on getting everyone to eat a little less meat; I'll keep pointing out where I think we need to head (while also trying to get people to take that first step and eat a little less meat -- you can do it dave!) and together we're part of a broad front for positive change on our planet!

What fun!

(and thanks also Tom, for the Ethicurian plug; I hadn't seen it before and now I'm trapped there, chewing the right thing...)

my books: The Coffee Book | Window Seat

Let me just say that I am very glad...

that Grist has taken the issue of factory-farming and meat production seriously- it is probably the single most important environmental issue in one respect: its huge impacts plus how relatively easy it is to solve- there are other things that may be more important ultimately but the solutions are much more complicated. This is one is easy; eat less meat. Even a carnivore can do that.

Economic Illiteracy Harms The Planet! www.voicesofreason.info.
Have you read "This can't be tofu?"

Deborah Madison wrote a great cookbook called "This Can't Be Tofu!: 75 Recipes to Cook Something You Never Thought You Would--and Love Every Bite" that I think veg and not alike will enjoy. - Roz

Mary,

I deleted my initial reply to you, which was somewhat ... indelicate.

Suffice to say, I work 10+ hour days ceaselessly trying to raise awareness of green issues and educate the public on them. I'm also a husband, father of two small children, and a homeowner, who also used to have hobbies and occasionally even attempts to relax. My food choices are one of about 500,000 things I need to attend to. I hardly think "apathy" describes my lifestyle, and more to the point, you hardly seem in a position to judge anything I do. Let me suggest, in as civil a manner as possible, that there's a reason vegetarians and vegans have a somewhat unflattering reputation among the population at large. You should take a page from Gregory's nonjudgmental, encouraging book.

grist.org

Some thoughts on omnivorous environmentalists

Each time I find out that a committed, self-professed environmentalist eats meat or consumes animal products, I never fail to be somewhat surprised or disappointed. I also find it difficult to take those people very seriously as environmentalists -- especially those who devote their professional lives to this subject. Frankly, I'd take a Grist writer more seriously if I found out he drove a hummer, than to find out he eats meat.

According to the UN Food and Agriculture Organization's recent report, this reaction is not unfounded. Livestock are responsible for more greenhouse gases that cause global warming than any other industry -- more than cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together. Livestock now use 30 per cent of the earth's entire land surface, and are a major cause of deforestation. Animal agriculture accounts for 37 per cent of all human-induced methane. It generates 65 per cent of human-related nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the global warming potential than that of CO2. In short, appealing to momentary gustatory pleasure to defend contributing to such enormous environmental degradation is, in my opinion, unjustifiable.

That being said, I agree that--in practical terms--the question of eating meat does not have to be (although ideally it is) an "all or nothing" proposition. For those who for whatever reasons find themselves "unable" to completely eliminate animal products from their diets, even to cut their consumption by a half or a third would have an enormous impact on the environment and animal suffering. I have great respect for those who have already taken this important first step, and encourage others to continue to push themselves as much as possible.

The David Roberts Challenge

I agree that the "shrill vegan" stereotype has a grain of truth to it, but I also have compassion for people expressing themselves in that mode: there's a global emergency, and here's something everyone can do to make a concrete difference, starting with their next meal -- there's got to be some moral failing in anyone who won't become a vegan!

Yet I can also see where someone like David is coming from -- he's a busy guy, and as easy as it sounds to make a "lifestyle change," it's really not so simple. Becoming vegan involves changing the way you relate to some of the most fundamental things in your life -- starting with food, shared meals with your loved ones, even your body's equilibrium.

But rather than see this as a frustrating impasse, let's take it on as a challenge. If someone who says "I know I should go vegan. I know there's no good reason not to, and plenty of good reasons to do it. And yet ... I just don't. I can't really explain or defend it." -- someone who is such a committed environmentalist he has been personally denouced by James Inhofe -- can't be brought round to vastly reduced animal product consumption, culminating in veganism, then nobody can be.

So... let's help David. Let's help him reduce his intake of meat and dairy (we'll get to leather later) while maintaining or enhancing his quality of life, including his nutrition, the amount of free time he has, the amount of money he spends on food, and his personal relationships.

First step, I think, is to establish a baseline: David, just how much of this stuff are you consuming?

my books: The Coffee Book | Window Seat

Animals and ag

I agree with Greg that raising animals to kill them raises vexing ethical questions -- ones that i have no answer for. I'm deeply troubled that rather arbitrary human conventions allow me to keep three cats and a dog as beloved pets -- and yet eat equally sentient animals like cows and pigs. Every meat eater should grapple with this paradox.

And yet ... while it's true that sustainable agriculture can exist without animal waste, I wonder whether vegan ag can be productive enough to replace animal-based sustainable ag. Every time you eat an apple or a bite of lettuce, you have extracted nutrients from the soil that need to be replaced. Nitrogen-fixing "green manure" crops  are valuable and necessary, but I honestly don't know if they're sufficient for intensive small-scale planting.

It seems to make sense for small vegetable farms to keep animals to turn crops residues and other would-be wastes into valuable fertilizer. This utilitarian defense of animal ag, of course, doesn't confront the moral arguments, though.

Moreover, I resist renouncing meat on cultural-preservation grounds. Our human heritage is more than just old buildings, old texts, and ruined monuments. It also lies in the robust living culinary traditions of cultures that really value food--e.g., Thailand, Italy, Vietnam, France, Mexico, China, etc. The idea of banning, say duck confit or Pho seems as tragic to me as obliterating the glorious ruins of Rome.

These traditions are, of course, overwhelmed and undermined by McDonalds culture, the idea that every American has the right to polish off nearly a pound of meat per day.

This has been a great discussion, and a consensus has formed: we need to eat much less, and when we do eat it, we should do so conscientiously.

Victual Reality

Meat, driving, helping David

When I learn that a committed, self-professed environmentalist owns and drives a car, I am surprised. The vegans and vegetarians always say, "But it's easy being vegetarian! Meat is gross! And I like animals!" I say, "But it's easy not owning a car! I hate driving! And my cousin was killed in a car!" Hey---you like driving, I like bacon.

Transportation accounts for many, many more times the greenhouse gas emissions than does agriculture. This does not mean that agriculture is unimportant, but if we're trying to decrease our emissions, surely it makes sense to first decrease the largest contributions, which are from transportation and electricity production?

Last I checked, David did not ask for anyone's help in changing his eating habits. Should we also offer him help in getting rid of his car? [David, just how often do you drive?] If he does wish to do so, I'm sure we'll be the first several dozen to know.


Heritage, Driving, Helping David

Tom:

There is plenty of human cultural heritage we've thankfully put behind us, starting with ritual cannibalism and slavery, extending through absolute monarchy and total subjugation of women, and into many, many things we're still working on, like racism, homophobia, and abusive levels of economic inequality.

All of those things were (and some still are) "robust living traditions." But we have transformed them as we have progressed. So now it's possible to, for example, admire the Taj Mahal without longing for the political and cultural systems that brought it about.

Is vegan pho still pho? It's different, that's for sure, but I submit that it is still a way to connect with the good parts of human cultural heritage contained within that steamy bowl while moving on from the bad parts.

Mihan:

It's not an either/or thing... it's a process and we're all working towards making the world better in whatever ways we can. I've been fortunate that I've been able to give up both meat and car ownership. Neither was "easy" but both have been rewarding.

David:

Forgive my enthusiasm. I forgot to ask: how can I help?

my books: The Coffee Book | Window Seat

Fine, I'll be the guinea pig

I don't actually think I consume all that much meat -- certainly not the 3/4 pound per day the average person apparently consumes (unless I'm visiting relatives in the South -- it's absurd the meat they eat down there). I'd say I eat one, occasionally two small portions a day, many days none at all, and my wife and I are careful to buy locally produced, sustainably grown meat whenever possible -- and it's possible most of the time in Seattle. So I really can't claim to be Average Meat Guy. I'm low, and low-impact, meat guy.

Aside from the meat, the dairy's the real problem. Cheese. Cream in my coffee. Butter. Mmm ... butter. Proof of God's love.

Here's why I don't go vegan:

  1. The division of labor in my home is that I keep the kids entertained while my wife (who also works full-time) cooks dinner most nights. So I'd have to get her -- and by extension, the kids -- on board with changing about 90% of her cooking/eating habits. Suffice to say, it's always hectic, we're always both tired, she's trying to scramble something together quick, and "slow food" just ain't gonna enter the picture. I'd like to hear from other parents of multiple small children whether they completely eschew pre-made meals, cause if they do, well, they're heroes. Thank God for Trader Joes is all I'm saying.
  2. Something about my metabolism, but I need hot, hearty, juicy food. I eat rice or vegetables or oats or whatnot and it just vaporizes in my stomach. I'm a heavy-food kind of guy, and for the most part, heavy means meat.
  3. With some exceptions -- many present here in this discussion -- the outspoken vegans and vegetarians I've come across have been smug, self-righteous, humorless, judgmental, and otherwise repugnant to well-adjusted people. Why would I want to join a club for which they are spokespeople? (This is where they respond, smugly and self-righteously, that facts are facts and it doesn't matter how they're presented, thus betraying again their fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and culture.)

OK, that last one has nothing to do with my eating habits, but I just wanted to say it.

So I need more than just vegan recipes. I need to know how vegan meals can be pulled together quickly, with minimum effort, at reasonably low cost, and can feed four hungry people every night, and fill my belly.

grist.org

archeology; "cuisine"

Tristram Stuart's book sounds fascinating; obviously I shall have to get my hands on it at some point.  "Freegan" is a concept I had never heard of.  It adds a remarkable little detail to that great and glorious tapestry known as British eccentricity.

He is right, of course, about the scandalous waste of perfectly good food.  In NYC there is an excellent organization called City Harvest, which collects discarded food from restaurants and distributes it to underprivileged persons.  Perhaps there are similar organizations elsewhere.

But feeding oneself out of the dumpsters and garbage dumps of others, the way too many people must keep themselves alive, is not a choice that most people who do not live with that necessity would make.

The early-modern stuff is great.  Presumably Stuart makes clear some details that in Steven Shapin's review are a bit murky.  In kashruth, hares (and rabbits too, I guess) are as unclean as pigs: the former chew the cud (true?) but do not split the hoof; the latter split the hoof but do not chew the cud.  So rabbits, strangled or otherwise, are never on the menu of kosher-keeping Jews.  As a Gentile, and (nominally?) a Christian, on the other hand, Isaac Newton felt free of the Jewish dietary rules, entitled to live by the decree of the Council of Jerusalem, in Acts 15:20 and 29, which retains those rules in a very minimal form.

The ancient Israelites did strangle (i.e., twist the necks of) doves, when they were chosen as sacrificial animals (cf. Leviticus 5:8).  But then apparently they were cut open, and the blood drained, as with mammals.  At some point, it seems, the practice of slaughtering fowl by the swift slash of a knife across the throat became standard in rabbinic Judaism.  In an excellent little book, from 1959, "The Jewish Dietary Laws," by Samuel H. Dresner and Seymour Siegel, Dresner insists that eating meat is a moral compromise, but when it is done according to kashrut, it is a way of hallowing God's creatures; the act of slaughtering is carefully prescribed to minimize the suffering of the individual animals; and part of the purpose of that care and reverence is to avoid desensitization and brutalization that result from non-kosher methods of killing animals, by hunting in the first place.

How much meat did Middle Eastern, Mediterranean and Northern Europeans actually eat, in pre-modern times?  I suspect for most of the population, it was relatively little.  There is a story told among classicists of a 19th-century English archeologist in Greece, describing to a peasant the power of Queen Victoria, and the great extent of her possessions; the peasant remarked in awe, "Oh, what a great queen, she must be able to eat meat every day!"

In the Iliad, the Greek warriors always eat beef -- and that strikes archeologists as so unlikely for any Aegean people, that they trace that story-element to an ancestral memory from before the arrival of proto-Greek-speakers in the Aegean region, or else a folkloric bit of fantasy.  Greeks have always raised sheep, goats, pigs and donkeys; they had cattle and horses, but those were relatively rare.

In that connexion, the passage from "Henry V" is interesting, suggesting that the French were a bit horrified by the regular English diet on beef.  One wonders what Shakespeare assumed the French ate.

Also, at first glance, I dispute Stuart's interpretation of that Scottish Grace, in which those who have "meat" are contrasted with those who do not.  I do not think "meat" necessarily means the flesh of animals.  The original sense in English was all solid food, from any source, NOT necessarily the flesh of animals.  We still use the word "meat" to mean the edible interior of anything with a shell or husk, e.g. the meat of a nut.

On the "uncuddly ways with livestock" of countryfolk, I believe that has never been universally the case.  Cf. the ironic, poignant speech of the Cyclops Polyphemus, on the morning after he was blinded, to his largest ram, as all the sheep file out of the cave, with Odysseus' men tied beneath; Odysseus holds the ram for himself, and goes out last; and Polyphemus says, "Sweet ram, why are you the last of the flock to pass out of the cave like this?  You have never before lagged behind the others ... Yet today you are the last of all.  You must be grieved for your master's eye, blinded by a wicked man and his accursed friends ..."

And also, cf. 2 Samuel 12, the prophet Nathan's parable of the rich man and the poor man, likening King David to the evil rich man, and the soldier Uriah, whose death David had engineered in order to get away with his affair with Uriah's wife Bathsheba, to the poor man: "The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds; But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up; and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat [i.e., food], and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter."  The rich man receives a guest, and in order to serve him dinner, takes no animal from his own flocks, but instead "took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him."  David is enraged: "As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die."  Nathan turns on him, and says, "Thou art the man."

Finally, Bart gives us another kind of parable, from the zoo in Devon.  We can observe that this rude diet happily did not kill the participants, in spite of the flatulence.  But on the other hand, they were highly motivated to begin with.  What is important to remember is that human beings from just about every culture have practised some form of "cuisine," some traditional methods of messing around with foods, involving various mixtures and heatings, to improve them somehow, and render them palatable.  And for many people, the enjoyment of cuisine is part of the good life.  To have to live like those denizens of the zoo would not be considered an improvement at all.  

Too bad that caffeine takes a hit.  The preparation of coffee in the Ottoman empire, and of tea in East Asia, can be regarded as an artform, almost a sacrament.

Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.

Planning, David, planning

I know parents of multiple kids who eat well (and almost-vegetarian) without pre-made meals. They have a large freezer and plan on Sunday for the week. It sounds like a pain, but it's quite effective and saves a lot of stress during the workweek. They cook a few times a week and eat lots of leftovers and salad-and-bread type meals. I basically do the same thing, except I'm even lazier and only cook two or three times a week (I also have a big freezer). Be very careful about trying to feed the kids vegan, though, since their brains need lots of fat to develop properly, especially if your kids' heads are as big as yours. As an added benefit, the planning would also help you play a larger role in your family's eating.

On meat and dairy: Personally, I prefer to make it a very rare treat (once a month or so). Dairy and eggs are so close to vegetables in terms of ecologic impact that I don't worry about eating them (vegans---pile on, right here), or the milk in my coffee. There's a reason the UCS focuses on meat first.

Finally, it's important to cut yourself some slack. If sometimes you just want that lasagne from Trader Joe's, then so be it.

I feel much better now, Dave.

Not that I care what you eat or smoke.  You are no hippie.  No need to go cold turkey.  You can start by not eating farm animals and just do dairy, eggs and Alaska wild salmon (brain food).  Cassandra went vegetarian and I just followed along.   Go easy on the soybean uptake (for key amino acids).

It doesn't matter what other people think.  Vegetarians will need a lot of help if their contribution to global warming mitigation is going to mean anything at all.  Do they get carbon credits?


Dave.,a couple quick questions and one comment

and I'd be happy to offer some suggestions. What types of foods do you and your family like and not like? Also, do you cook a lot or do you want prepared foods? I can't guarantee that you'll like all of my suggestions, but I can try. Most people do. I like heavy foods as well and lots of grease and salt for that matter.

Second point. There is no doubt that many vegetarians and vegans are self-righteous and annoying, but you know what, so are most people, period, including people who eat meat. Bottom line: I don't think it's unique to one group, it's just that opposing groups always see the others as more annoying than they are.

Anyway, I applaud your efforts to reduce animal products in your diet; I, for one, never ever demand that people do anything nor do I even think that everyone needs to be vegetarian, just that a move in that direction would do great things for the environment.

J.S.

Economic Illiteracy Harms The Planet! www.voicesofreason.info.

And Substitution...

David;

As I'm sure you know, there are lots of vegan products out there readily obtained by anyone living in Seattle and shopping at Trader Joe's that can be slipped right into your existing diet totally seamlessly.

I've had great success giving kids vegan hot dogs and vegan meatballs (both avaialbe at TJ's) -- to the extent that two of my nephews in non-veg families now insist on the vegan versions because they like them better.

As for butter, try this stuff:

http://www.earthbalance.net/

I get the kind in the...

And as for cheese... please stay away from the vegan cheeses. They're not ready for prime time in most applications, in my opinion. I was a cheese lover before becoming vegan too, and for a while it was a challenge for me to give it up. So for now, just cut down; think about some other yummy things you could eat. At TJs, check out those ready-made spreads -- the Artichoke and the Sun Dried tomato ones are both vegan, as are others.

In fact, check out every label anywhere you go. I think you'll find you have easy access to a lot more vegan options than you might assume. (as an added benefit, reading lots of labels makes you eat better more generally)

As for your meat, how about limiting yourself to local organic meat only, and going meatless when you can't get it.

So how about that for week 1:

  1. make easy substitutions
  2. refuse meat that's not local and organic
  3. explore your surroundings for vegan options you might not have thought of
  4. shrilly berate friends and family who "just don't get it" and stomp out in a huff if anyone dares serve you a meatless patty that contains whey

oh wait... that last one is from week 2...


my books: The Coffee Book | Window Seat
earth balance

i get the kind in the red tub

(no idea how that turned into an ellipsis when i posted...)

my books: The Coffee Book | Window Seat

coffee

strangely, this also went missing from my post...

Have you tried soymilk in your coffee? Another strategy that can help you reduce cream in your coffee is to get heavy-bodied, "creamy" coffees like the Gayoland from Zoka in Seattle:

http://www.zokacoffee.com/product.php/11/3/sumatra-gayola...

it really is excellent.

my books: The Coffee Book | Window Seat

I should add ...

... that soy milk upsets my stomach something fierce. I use rice milk on cereal. And yeah, veggie corn dogs are a huge hit in my household -- especially dipped in Annie's Goddess dressing. Don't scoff til you try it!

grist.org
For the heavier feeling


  David,

      Try some things like whole wheat pizza, also consider cooking more with beans.  A lot of vegan recipes are low fat, but a nice piece of fresh bread dipped in organic olive oil may give you that heavier feeling you miss.  Add some hummus to that as a possiblity.  Pasta is also helpful.  

      In terms of the kids, try some of the commercial products, like the vegetarian chicken nuggets to add to the hot dogs (I loved those as well when I was in the US, some junk food once in a while doesn't kill anybody!).

      Veggie Burgers!!  Some are pretty good (darn I forget the brand names, it has been too long!), maybe folks can suggest them.  Experiment to see if the kids like any of them, let them look for things they might want to try.  Remember, you can still eat french fries (smile).

      In terms of cooking, stir frying is one of the easiest and quickest ways to cook.  Add some mushrooms for bulk as well (heavy feeling).

      Consider stir frying some veggies, then putting them in sub rolls with ketchup, salsa or mustard (whatever you and the kids like).  A quick and easy meal.

      Make change only as you are comfortable with it, don't be driven by the demands of others (including any of us!).  

      I agree with Jason that if people eat less meat, that is a good goal.  

      I eat mostly vegan, but also eat an egg or some cheese once in a while.  Sorry Gregroy, I am not an animal rights person.  If we are going to rant about self-righteous vegetarians and vegans, I have a different take on it (smile).  When I lived in San Francisco and was active in vegetarian and other politics, it was very rare for me to find an animal rights person who cared about poor people.

     (Obviously, this is not aimed at any one here, since I don't know any of you that well!)

     My experience was that the very people who cared so much about animal suffering were largely indifferent to human suffering.  It turned me off so completely that even now, years later, it still influences me.  While I agree in theory that we should care about animal suffering, it seems to me that we should care about human suffering as well, and frankly, I don't see many animal rights advocates who really do.

     So, thats my rant!!!  

     Basically, though, I believe the world is better served by as many people as possible eating as little meat as possible.  However, I have no interest in condemning any individual for what they do or don't eat.  

     Better to seduce people like Roz does with her lovely recipes than to nag them to death.

     Please, David, take the advice we all give here as loving suggestions, but not nagging.  And whatever you and your family eat, enjoy it!

patrick

More to it...

I think the problem is more a case of quantity v quality. There is more to the meat industry than just cows giving off methane, ranging from the deforestation of huge tracts of pristine rainforest, to endless carbon emissions transporting the meat around the world and to individual restaurants, so that Americans can gorge on three-quarters of a pound of meat a day courtesy of McDonald's (no wonder obesity is such a problem there...). Therefore, before trying to persuade everyone to go vegan, it might be better to try and clean up the meat production industry, and reduce the huge amount that goes to waste throughout it.

Living as I do in a country where it is practically impossible to get decent beef, I have never developed much of a liking for it and would have no trouble cutting it out of my diet, although chicken would be much more difficult. However, it seems to me that if people could be persuaded to eat small amounts of good-quality meat, rather than endless amounts of garbage, it could be healthier for people and the environment, without having to make such radical lifestyle changes. It is not possible to concentrate just on the animals, and then skip to the steak on the plate.

As for those who talk about the (non) humanitarian side of eating meat, I appreciate their viewpoint, but I just say this: the day that everyone on earth goes vegetarian, most livestock will have to be slaughtered.

If I share initials with 'Global Warming', is that a sign?

Some suggestions:

  1. Definitely Earth Balance margarine- the whipped version is best

  2. The Goddess dressing is my favorite- Annie's has lots of other great flavors

  3. In terms of milk substitutes, hemp and oat milks are also great- different tastes but worth a try- also, soy milks that have kombu in them are supposed to be better for people who have a hard time digesting soy

  4. Sunshine burgers are great for people who don't like fake meat as much- they are pure vegetable

  5. As to desserts- all of the rice cream bars covered in chocolate are excellent- not the pints- I had Dominican kids who eat nothing but meat and dairy loving those things and not knowing they were made of rice

  6. As to deserts, Dave, since you're in the Bay Area Black China bakery stuff, which you can get at Whole Foods is the best, people who are not vegan think that their vegan chocolate cake is better than with dairy

  7. Not many good cheese substitutes, but nutritional yeast is amazing and has an almost parmesan flavor- if you make vegan pizza with sundried tomatoes, olive oil, sauce, and nutritional yeast it's the best- you can put this on rice and beans, pasta, everything- it's pure vitamins, minerals, protein, and B-12- amazing stuff- everyone should have a jar off it in the kitchen- the large flakes are the best

  8. For making breaded cutlets use egg replacer as a coagulant- works perfectly- vegan eggplant cutlets are amazing

I could go on and on....what else on the quick tip? Most of the fake sausages make for excellent sausage and pepper sandwiches with onions and sauce, a boca burger with a grilled portobello on top will fill you up...

To be continued...

J.S.

Economic Illiteracy Harms The Planet! www.voicesofreason.info.

Vegan burger recipe

from The Splendid Table:

1 can black beans
1 cup cooked lentils
1 cup soyonnaise
1 cup leftover cooked vegetables, any, finely chopped (beets are great)
1 cup breadcrumbs
herbs/spices to taste

coarsely chop beans in blender.  Mix with remaining ingredients, make up into patties and bake on oiled cookie sheet.  Cool and wrap individually, place in freezer bag and freeze.
Microwave burgers as needed to make a great quick sandwich.

The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

Amen

Nobody ever has a problem with someone who lays out reasonable arguments for moderating meat consumption. Problems occur when the proselytizing starts. "I have not only given up all meat, but all animal products as well, a car, a family, and a home. I live under a blue tarp at the corner of 5th and Jackson, recycled of course. Its previous owner having succumbed to exposure."

In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world
Making meat palatable

I have been vegan for sixteen years. Maybe I am an unusual vegan for saying this, but I do not think it is wrong for people to eat animals. All life lives at the expense of other life.

What I object to is the way animals are raised as commodities with no respect for their needs or feelings, no ability to have anything resembling a natural life. I choose not to eat meat because it is not strictly necessary for my health, and therefore it is not worth the trade-off to my ethics given the circumstances in which I live, where even humanely-raised animals by law MUST be sent to the same horrific slaughterhouses featured in PETA videos.

That said, I do understand the reasons why people eat meat, and why they might be conflicted about it. Rather than focusing on eating less meat, I'd rather have any sympathetic omnivores out there help sway public opinion and policy to demand more natural and humane conditions for animals. Animal cruelty, like slavery, is in my mind not the sort of thing you should let the market decide. Rather, I believe a change in law and policy is necessary.

Mandating truly humane and natural conditions for animals, including adequate range upon which to feed themselves, would necessarily put an end to intensive factory farming and make meat more expensive, both of which would serve to reduce livestock populations and their accompanying environmental impact. I would be perfectly happy to see a world with ethical animal husbandry  integrated into organic farming. Okay, so I would prefer that animals only be slaughtered when their own decreasing quality of life (rather than human appetite) dictates, but I would applaud any system in which slaughter was done with thought and respect.

Would a system like this be able to feed the world cheap meat? Nope. But please correct me if I'm wrong, don't we currently lose an awful lot of food value by cycling grain through livestock? It seems logically correct that we'd have an easier time feeding the world with plant foods than meat.    (I could go into the reasons why hunger is a distribution problem rather than a supply problem, but that would be a digression. For now, let's assume that the human population will increase to the point where pure supply might someday be an issue).

A switch to small-scale and humane animal husbandry (which is actually the normal practice now for multitudes of rural / poor families and communities across the globe) would benefit planetary health, human health, and the evolution of the human soul. I believe we can get past this unfortunate period in which so many feel compelled by circumstances to participate in a system that is currently, at least to my way of thinking, terribly broken. Victory gardens and backyard chickens for all!

Easy hearty vegan food

Now back to David's questions about cooking, if you do want to include more fast, easy, filling meatless food.

I have two words for you. Crock pot. Two more. Bread machine.

You didn't really expect I could keep this to just two words, did you?

If I were you (or your wife) I'd go for stews, chili, casseroles, and hearty breads. All of these are easy--you just chop or measure stuff and then throw it in to the device of your choosing. Use beans, nuts, seeds, seitan, tofu, tempeh, tvp, and whole grains to make the meals filling. And greens. It's amazing how filling a big plate of cooked greens can be.

Use your microwave to zap veggies and then puree them in the blender for soup bases.

Or use your blender to make fruit smoothies with frozen fruit, protein powder, and soy / rice / or nut milk. I particularly like almond milk.  

Cook up a big batch of whole wheat pasta or brown rice pasta and make a big casserole with the sauce of your choosing, meatless meat balls (I like Nate's brand), and whatever veggies you like.

Make a big pot of hot cereal with rolled oats or other rolled grains (for example, quinoa flakes or kamut flakes), nuts, frozen or fresh fruit, and some kind of sweetener like molasses or maple syrup. This is great reheated for quick breakfasts (quicker than a bowl of cereal!) or office lunches.

Thinking about it, I bet you could get some really good advice on mass vegan meals from any of the multitude of vegetarian cooperatives around here. (I live in the Bay Area too). No one knows more about stretching a dollar and feeding a pack of hungry veg*ns than those commie greenies.

Re: tasty vegan convenience foods, there are oodles.

Trader Joe's has big calorific semi-organic vegan bean burritos. They come in a two-pack in the frozen section. They also have yummy black bean and corn enchiladas, also a frozen two-pack, but these are less filling. For a big tray of vegan enchiladas, look for the 8 enchilada frozen pack, Amy's brand, at Whole Foods.

Health is Wealth makes vegan chicken nuggets breaded in whole wheat flour that are muy yummo. I get these at Rainbow Grocery in SF.

Whole Foods has a house-brand box of frozen breaded eggplant cutlets that make a great casserole layered with mashed tofu and vegetables / greens with tomato sauce.

Starlite Cuisine makes delish frozen rolled tacos in three or four different varieties from soy chorizo to garlic "chicken." I also get these at Rainbow.

For a treat, Amy's makes a frozen vegan pizza with carmelized onions, shitake mushrooms, red peppers, and artichoke hearts that is to die for. However, it is relatively small and has a low satiation to calorie ratio. I would use this as an appetizer or a side dish for a family of four.

I could go on, if this is helpful...


PS to JS

For the record, Skittles (you meant the candy, right?) are not vegan. At least not here in the US, though I believe the UK version is gelatin-free. At least it used to be.

Straw man vegans

Nobody ever has a problem with someone who lays out reasonable arguments for moderating meat consumption. Problems occur when the proselytizing starts. "I have not only given up all meat, but all animal products as well, a car, a family, and a home. I live under a blue tarp at the corner of 5th and Jackson, recycled of course. Its previous owner having succumbed to exposure."

Translation: "I'll eat as much industrial meat as I darn well want to because some of the people who don't are annoying me."

Enough already with the cheap shots and straw man arguments.  Again the attempt to control the breadth of the discussion by mockery.  Of all the posts in this thread there's hardly a one with a taint of vegan self-righteousness, but many that are clear and thoughtful and compassionate and inclusive.

Thank you Laura K for a wonderful contribution to the discussion.

The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.

Self-righteousness and suggestions

David: I agree that some people who choose to be vegan can at times come across as judgmental and self-righteous. Please remember, though, as Greg pointed to, most of us come from a good place -- i.e., we seek to relieve what we see as unnecessary animal suffering and the degradation of the planet. It is frustrating to be engaged in a rational discussion about the politics of animal consumption, and be accused of being self-righteousness, judgmental, or having no sense of humor. As any history aficionado can tell you, these insults were repeatedly, relentlessly hurled against slavery abolitionists and women's rights advocates -- in large part, I think, just to shut them up. If you are feeling personally attacked please just say so. It is not necessary or helpful to reflexively accuse the offending person of being a perfect, smug representative of everything that is wrong with all self-righteous vegans, and then use it as one of the reasons why you don't want to go vegan. As anyone who belongs to a minority will tell you, it sucks to bear the responsibility of being an entire group's spokesperson.

Having said that, I greatly admire your openmindedness and your decision to try to shift towards a more plant-based diet. Yes, having a spouse and kids who regularly consume animal products certainly can make it more difficult. Perhaps it might be best to tell them about some of the discussions you've been having, and your thoughts on the environmental and animal welfare impact of one's diet. That way they might come to the same conclusions you have, and it will feel more like a communal decision and not like you've imposed a new family order.

As far as more tips to make the transition as easy as possible:

  1. Try all the fake meat products on the market, and try to replace "real" meat with the fake ones you like best. My favorites are Morningstar Chikin' Strips, fake meatballs (great for spaghetti), Boca Burgers, Vegan Gardenburgers, Gimme Lean Sausage, and TVP (which tastes like immitation ground beef -- great in lasagne or chili).

  2. Cook with a lot of fat (e.g., olive and canola oil, Earth Balance). I could be wrong, but I think the heaviness and richness of a food lies more in its fat content than the fact that the protein is animal instead of plant derived. Remember that a ground beef burger has about 10 times as much fat as a veggie burger, and this is one of the reasons the former tastes better and is more satisfying. So I would liberally use oil and margarine and Vegenaise on just about everything, especially when you're cooking with fake meats.

  3. As other people have mentioned, try to make a couple of huge meals on the weekend, so you can have leftovers a couple days during the week.

  4. Try to think about veganism less as a deprivation, and more as a way to open yourself up to many new and different foods. It becomes sort of a fun challenge, and you end up learning about and trying more foods than you probably ever would as an omnivore.

  5. Just remember that every lit bit you can do helps, and it's not some major failure if you opt for a non-vegan food. If you ever feel like just giving up, then back off a bit and let yourself take it more slowly. At the same time, remember it's important to gently push yourself, just as you might encourage people to push themselves to drive less, even though it can be inconvenient and difficult at first.

Mihan: It is not true that transportation "accounts for many, many more times the greenhouse gas emissions than does agriculture." Agriculture creates more greenhouse gases than all forms of transportation combined. The most recent support for this is found in the FAO's report, which can be read at: http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/.... That being said, I completely agree and hope that environementalists would seek to eliminate cars from their lives. If I actually did have to choose between the two, though, I would choose to eliminate animal consumption, both because it has more of an environmental impact and because of the ethical issues involved.

And, lest I disappoint, I'll respond to your claim that dairy is similar to vegetables in ecological impact. The manure and gas of dairy cows are no less detrimental than those of beef cattle, and, given their longer (unnatural) lifespans, and the fact that they are kept constantly pregnant in order to continue lactating (and thus creating more cows), I would think that dairy cows are actually even worse for the environment.

--Erin

Laura K....

Thank you for raising the animal welfare arguments- I have been making the case that they are integral to environmentalism, to mixed review I must say, but what you say makes a lot of sense and I largely share your views- It would be nice if everybody were vegan, but since most people for the foreseeable future are going to eat meat, focusing on the conditions and the environmental impacts is a huge deal. Thanks.

Economic Illiteracy Harms The Planet! www.voicesofreason.info.
kosher slaughter; minority status

Dear Laura K, I join Spaceshaper in thanking you for your remarkably helpful good counsel.

On slaughterhouses which PETA condemns (many others too): I do not know how accurate it is to say, as you do, that all animals, no matter how humanely raised, must be slaughtered in the same horrific way, sans glass walls.  Kosher slaughtering is an entirely different thing.  Here is an interesting discussion of the principle (in brief) of shechitah, with a comment on PETA's criticism of a major Kosher slaughterhouse:

http://www.jewfaq.org/peta.htm

Dear Erin/EVanVoo, I felt a pang of guilt when I read this sentence of yours: "As anyone who belongs to a minority will tell you, it sucks to bear the responsibility of being an entire group's spokesperson."  Since I always sign off with a zoophilic slogan, perhaps it was my responsibility to join the several (you are hardly alone here!) vegetarians and vegans who have so valiantly promoted the cause on this thread.

(Being a gay man, by the way, a member of another minority group not well thought of everywhere, I have given up complaining about the vaguely homophobic connotation of "it sucks."  But I still cry out against "that is so gay!")

In fact, you are all doing so well, and anyway this is not at all the first time that the issue has been raised.  Plus, I am not competent to comment on all the specific food items that many of you have recommended.

Moreover, I firmly believe persuasion does not come quickly, and it certainly does not come by haranguing and shaming the person to be persuaded.  We should lead by our example and our witness.

And there is no one whom I respect more than David, and whom I trust more to make a good ethical decision in his own time.

Meanwhile, I think we can all join in celebrating George McGovern's "profile in courage" moment (well, if that is what it was, and not a mere blunder), back in 1977, which Michael Pollan (in Sunday's NYTimes Magazine) clearly admires.  The Senate Select Committee on Nutrition, which McGovern headed, "drafted a straightforward set of dietary guidelines calling on Americans to cut down on red meat and dairy products."  A huge industrial counter-attack ensued, McGovern backed down, and still lost his Senate seat from rancher-rich SD.  Nevertheless Pollan thinks that original simple advice is a fine place to start, in talking about what all of us should eat.

Chickens deserve our true friendship! So do fish! So do other sentient beings! Let us learn to be kind.

Spaceshaper

That was not an attempt to control the breadth of discussion. If anything, it was an attempt to expand it by offering a tongue in cheek critique.

From my perspective, you are the one attempting to control the breadth of discussions with humor free diatribes against individual posters (your rapist analogy fell pretty flat) backed up with one-line cheers for those who share your viewpoint.

Mockery, which you have repeatedly called a tool of bullies, is just a form of humor, along with satire, and sarcasm. Grist is a funny place. You will see those things being used to critique Bush, and lots of people and ideas. My remark wasn't aimed at any individual. If it happened to hit a little too close for comfort, my apologies.


In the end, it all comes down to biodiversity. Poison Darts--Protecting the biodiversity of our world

wild cow, not into bondage, seeks companion

First, thanks to the folks who have thanked me. I thank all of those participating in this discussion for grappling thoughtfully with an incredibly charged issue. It is never easy to debate topics that are tightly bound up in how we live our daily lives. Even less so when there are implications to ethics, where one "side" is cast as self-righteous and the other as unethical or unfeeling--both of which are caricatures of pieces of this struggle to lead a good life, which we are all in together.

To JS, I am glad we agree in large part. Your arguments make sense to me too. For many years I also thought the world would be a better place if everyone were vegan. However, these days I'm not so sure. As tico89 pointed out, there is precious little place in the world for livestock animals if humans don't raise them. ("Hey Mavis, what happened to your camelias?" "Wild cows got 'em. Dang things come out into the suburbs at night.")

So is it better as a species to be extinct, maybe with a few token representatives in a zoo, or to live a good life and be humanely put down at the end of it, as we do for pets? Really, how does an animal die in nature? By disease, infection, predation, intra-species fighting / murder, or starvation, right? Not very pretty. In contrast, having a human respectfully take the life of an animal and then use its parts (compassionate predation?) seems like a good option. Better really than how we treat our own elderly whose lives are extended by modern medicine until the bitter end, often whether they like it or not since easy, painless assisted suicide is not yet much of an option.

To caniscandida, you are right that not all slaughterhouses are the same, and some are worse than others. Thank you for your link. Kosher slaughter is among the best since compassion is an active guideline, and I agree that cutting the throat is probably one of the most humane methods. My comment that all animals end up in horrific slaughterhouses was overstated, but was directed toward the fact that organic / humane small-scale farmers are not, by law, allowed to personally butcher their own animals on the farm as was done in the past, so they are not in control of how the slaughter is performed.

Re: kosher slaughter specifically, I confess I do not have enough information about the current state of kosher slaughter. In the past I have read about a significant problem due to US law that requires that animals not be killed on the ground. Because of this law, large animals like a cow must be hoisted and shackled (upside down) to a wall, fully conscious as required by kosher law, suspending her full weight on one (possibly now broken) leg, causing the animal great distress and pain as it waits for the knife. And for efficiency and safety for the guy with the knife, many animals may be hoisted in a line, extending the time of their suffering. I would welcome more data on whether this is still the practice.

animal issues

Tico89,
The world is unlikely to go vegan in one day.  Simply reducing (eventually to zero) the breeding of animals intended to be slaughtered for food would do it.  And if the world did become vegan tomorrow, and all those animals were to become superfluous, they'd either (ideally) live out as normal and healthy a life as possible, or else be slaughtered...but they were slated to be slaughtered anyway, as are millions of animals not yet born or even conceived.  So how, exactly, would the (extremely farfetched) scenario you bring up be worse?

LauraK,
I agree with you that humane treatment of animals is the important thing, but I think you're giving the rural poor more credit than they deserve.  Not to knock the rural poor--I certainly prefer them to (most of) the urban rich, and understand the need for attention to social justice issues.

However, I've also spent a fair amount of time observing how the rural poor actually treat their animals, and it ain't always pretty.  For background, I've worn a number of hats, including that of cruelty investigator, for a horse rescue in New Mexico, and I've spent over twenty years as part of the largely rural, largely poor community of horsepeople in northern and central NM.  What I've learned is that people, in general, are abusive to animals when they think it benefits them to do so.  

Rich people do it too, don't get me wrong--the $20K horses drugged so they can compete despite their injuries, etc--but when people are struggling to feed their families, not very many of them are going to come up with extra cash when their animals' injuries require veterinary treatment.  If their animals can produce whatever commodity (meat, eggs, transportation, etc) with less care and less expensive feed than what's optimal for the animals' happiness, then that's what they'll get.    

Also, many of the world's more traditional cultures lack any tendency to view animals as having emotions or mental needs, thus taking away any motivation to attend to animals' wants in addition to their bare physical needs.  

Having few enough animals that you can actually pay attention to each one is certainly a precondition for humane treatment, but when you add other stresses like poverty and lack of education, not to mention lack of availability of veterinary care, etc, in rural areas, the picture is not rosy.  Just like rich people, some poor people have a special love for animals, but being poor and living in the country certainly doesn't guarantee it, and if anything makes it less likely, given that, when something has to give in a subsistence economy, it's most often something, like an animal, that can't fight back.

Check out this HSUS page for more on efforts to combat these problems, at least for horses (and it seems they also aim to help other draft animals)