'Mars and Pluto are warming too'

How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic

Posted by Coby Beck (Guest Contributor) at 3:07 PM on 19 Dec 2006

(Part of the How to Talk to a Global Warming Skeptic guide)

Objection: Global warming is happening on Mars and Pluto as well. Since there are no SUVs on Mars, CO2 can't be causing global warming.

Answer: Warming on another planet would be an interesting coincidence, but it would not necessarily be driven by the same causes.

The only relevant factor the earth and Mars share is the sun, so if the warming were real and related, that would be the logical place to look. As it happens, the sun is being watched and measured carefully back here on earth, and it is not the primary cause of current climate change.

As for the alleged extraterrestrial warming, there is extremely little evidence of a global climate change on Mars. The only piece I'm aware of is a series of photographs of a single icy region in the southern hemisphere that shows melting over a six year period (about three Martian years).

Here on earth we have direct measurements from all over the globe, widespread glacial retreat, reduction of sea ice, and satellite measurements of the lower troposphere up to the stratosphere. To compare this mountain of data to a few photographs of a single region on another planet strains credulity. And in fact, the relevant scientists believe the observation described above is the result of a regional change caused by Mars' own orbital cycles, like what happened during the earth's glacial cycles.

See Global Warming on Mars? from RealClimate for much more detail about this issue.

Turning to the outer reaches of the solar system: in the icy cold and lonely Kuiper Belt was observed a difference in Pluto's atmospheric thickness, inferred from two occultation observations 14 years apart. But a cursory glance at Pluto's orbit and atmosphere reveals how ridiculous it is to draw any conclusions about climate, much less climate change, from observations spanning less than even a single season, let alone enough years to even establish the climate's normal state.

Anyone trying to draw conclusions about what is happening here on earth from all this might as well be from another planet.

Back to Mars for a quick summary:

On Earth, we have poles melting, surface temperature rising, tropospheric temperatures rising, permafrost melting, glaciers worldwide melting, CO2 concentrations increasing, borehole analysis showing warming, sea ice receding, proxy reconstructions showing warming, sea level rising, sea surface temperatures rising, energy imbalance, ice sheets melting, and stratospheric cooling, all of which leads us to believe the earth is undergoing global warming driven by an enhanced greenhouse effect.

One Mars we have one spot melting, which leads us to believe that ... one spot is melting.

Forgive me for not being reassured.

For story: 'Mars and Pluto are warming too'
20 Comments | Post a Comment

Other planets are warming up too.

Well, the thing is that it is not only "Mars" and "Pluto" that are warming, but pretty much every planet, and moon with an atmosphere in the solar system is warming/undergoing climate change, and in most cases what is happening to every planet in the solar system, is worse than what is happening on Earth.

Global Warming on Pluto.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/pluto_warming_02100...

Climate change/warming on Jupiter.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2006-05-04-jup...

Global warming on Triton. (Neptune's largest moon)
http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/19980526052143data_trunc...

Global warming on Enceladus. (A moon of Saturn)
http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/articles/20060419/Featu...

Climate change on Saturn.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6135450.stm...

and i think i am missing some other planets/moons in our solar system who are undergoing global warming/climate change.

by Yadhel at 1:21 PM on 14 Jan 2007

One more link on global warming on Triton

Here is another link about Global warming on Triton from MIT.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1998/triton.html

by Yadhel at 1:29 PM on 14 Jan 2007

Thanks for the links

Did you read them?

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/pluto_warming_02100...
'Though Pluto was closest to the Sun in 1989, a warming trend 13 years later does not surprise David Tholen, a University of Hawaii astronomer involved in the discovery.

"It takes time for materials to warm up and cool off, which is why the hottest part of the day on Earth is usually around 2 or 3 p.m. rather than local noon," Tholen said. "This warming trend on Pluto could easily last for another 13 years."'

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1998/triton.html
'T...
'The movement of heat from the equator to Jupiter's south pole is expected to stop at 34 degrees southern latitude, where Red Spot Jr. is forming.

This will create a big wall and stop the mixing of heat and airflow, the thinking goes. As a result, areas around the equator become warmer, while the poles can start to cool down.'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6135450.stm
Absolutely nothing about climate change on Saturn.

"What if this weren't a hypothetical question?" -- unknown

by Coby Beck at 5:13 PM on 16 Jan 2007

forgot one...

http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/articles/20060419/Featu...
Again, nothing on a climate change, only this:
'The only explanation for these unexpected findings is that Enceladus somehow supplies its own heat, Ingersoll says. "Sunlight could not possibly produce temperatures like that in the outer solar system."'

"What if this weren't a hypothetical question?" -- unknown

by Coby Beck at 5:18 PM on 16 Jan 2007

Saturn?

Yeah, I have to agree, half of those articles were totally irrelevant. Interesting, but certainly nothing that would suggest that they're experiencing climate change in the way that we are. The articles that do mention climate change suggest that it's a shift in regional temperatures, as Coby pointed out with the Jupiter article.

Triton:
Elliot and his colleagues believe that Triton's warming trend could be driven by seasonal changes in the absorption of solar energy by its polar ice caps.
There's no big surprise that planets warm and cool over time; the difference here is that Earth is experiencing climate change on a scale never before seen.

So at best, Triton and Jupiter are relevant. Considering that there are over 100 planets, dwarf planets, and natural satellites (moons) in our Solar System, I wouldn't consider those two to be significant evidence of System-wide warming.

Taking accounting to the extreme since 2004.

by akbeancounter at 1:31 PM on 14 Feb 2007

Or why not just make like a contrarian

And talk out of both sides of your mouth? That works well to get Roger Pielke Jr. a constant stream of calls from reporters.

Benny Big Eye

by Benny Big Eye at 10:18 AM on 22 Feb 2007

How To Talk to An Anthrogenic CrackPot

Right, NASA is completely wrong...and grist knows everything:

NASA'S GLOBAL SURVEYOR SEES POSSIBLE CLIMATE CHANGE ON MARS
The planet Mars we know today is a cold, dry, desert world, but suppose the martian climate is changing even now, year to year and decade to decade?

NASA's Mars Exploration Program

by jabailo at 10:29 AM on 22 Feb 2007

Thank you for explaining

Now I understand that no amount of facts will dissuade you folks. If only you applied the same level of skepticism to "greenhouse gases" and these ridiculous climate models as you do to anything that contradicts your belief. It really doesn't matter how many articles are shown to you or how many planets show warming.

by bassman at 10:26 PM on 08 Mar 2007

Climate Change on Saturn

Coby Beck, in the story about the hurricane on Saturn, perhaps you missed the point that there is a HURRICANE on Saturn. Do you even understand what the word "climate" means? Climate is commonly defined as "the weather averaged over a long period of time." This is the first hurricane ever detected on Saturn. So, by definition, this is a major climate change. Have you ever even taken a science class?

by JPVanderbilt at 11:10 AM on 21 Mar 2007
[ Parent ]

"First time detected" means what

Could mean that "we've looked continously and in detail for a long time and this is the first time we've ever seen this phenomenon."
Unfortunately, in this case, it means something more along the lines of, "This is the first time we've had equipment capable of detecting this phenomenon in place upon an occassion of this phenomenon's expression."

by Trakar at 9:53 AM on 06 Apr 2007
[ Parent ]

BTW

>Do you even understand what the word "climate"
>means? Climate is commonly defined as "the
>weather averaged over a long period of time."

BTW - you do realize that 30 Saturn years would be almost 900 Earth years. By these standards it will be a long time before we are able to say much about Saturn's climate.

by Trakar at 9:58 AM on 06 Apr 2007
[ Parent ]

Seriously?

So the people who say that we don't know enough about the climate systems on earth to make any claims that humans are responsible for global warming now think that a ridiculously small amount of measurements taken only very recently of other planets is convincing evidence of their point of view?

Thousands of scientists and research project and publications. A few hundred years of observations and data and a bunch of satellites sending back daily info. All of that builds us a picture of climate change on earth. Yet it is nothing compared to the few data points we have elsewhere in the solar system?

by MarkUK at 10:39 AM on 06 Apr 2007

Yeah!!! And incidentally...

MarkUK, thank you for making a very important point.

We've been studying the other planets for only a few decades. Furthermore, we do not have detailed geological records from those other planets to reconstruct the natural cycles their climates go through. The problem with our current situation is that we know it is unprecedented in human history and probably unprecedented in recent geological history. The rate of change might be entirely unprecedented.

But one more point for the skeptics clinging to this interesting information from our studies of other planets...

IT DOESN"T MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay... suppose every planet is getting warmer and it is actually entirely the result of the Sun growing warmer. Then it is even more important that we immediately bring a halt to putting any additional carbon dioxide into the atmosphere! And every other greenhouse gas! If this is an unprecedented natural event, then it is an unprecedented natural disaster that calls for extreme measures to reverse it. All life on Earth is threatened. Your information regarding the other planets getting warmer could be grounds for instituting global-wide martial law and severe rationing of carbon-emission credits. Is that what you want done? Are you suggesting that environmentalists are underestimating the danger we are facing due to global climate change?

by wiscidea at 11:14 AM on 06 Apr 2007

Well

This falls into the faux argument category anyways.

The skeptics are basically saying
"You say CO2 causes ALL global warming. Well all I have to do is show some warming caused by something else, and I can disprove CO2 causes ANY warming!"

The sun is actually a great explanation for warming on earth. Most the 20th century warming was caused by increases in solar radiation.

Catch is, increased solar radiation just can not explain the current warming.
Since we haven't had any significant increased solar radiation in over 6 decades.

http://www.greyfalcon.net/solar.png

by GreyFlcn at 11:14 AM on 06 Apr 2007

Fun stuff

They are finding out why Mars is warming.

Massive Dust Storms
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q= ...

by GreyFlcn at 6:06 PM on 11 Apr 2007

Global Warming

The evidence is convincing. When sunspots appear, they say, global warming ensues. When the sunspots are absent, the sun cools; and occasionally, mini ice ages occur.

Sunspots are the visible results of solar eruptions. When the sun undergoes severe magnetic activity, it flings billions of tons of gases into space. The sun's turmoil over thousands of years can be judged from isotopes locked into Earth's ice cores and tree rings. From these, scientists can determine when the sun's magnetic and flare activity has changed from vigorous commotion to a relative calm.

Solar scientists, including astronomers and atmospheric physicists, have concluded that extended solar activity has unquestionably contributed to, and is possibly the only cause for, global warming and cooling throughout history.
The Earth has warmed and cooled millions of times since its creation, even before the first human arrived on this planet.
Although asteroids were the final straw in two of Earth's five mass extinctions, climate change was the only cause of three mass extinctions. As for the other two: The two asteroid impacts that ended the Cretaceous and Triassic-Permian eras only finished off what climate change had begun.
The Earth during humankinds' pre-industrial time also experienced warming and cooling eras.
Astronomers at Harvard University had concluded a couple of years ago that the sun's warming over the past 300 years might be the cause of the current global warming.
The last warming era ended in 1420 A.D., followed by the Little Ice Age that lasted until the mid-1800s.

Astronomers have long noticed that the ice caps at the poles of the planet Mars have been receding during the same recent time that Earth has been warming. No other logical reason can be offered other than solar warming. Environmentalists prefer to ignore this fact and blame manufacturing and vehicles as the causes for their "man-made greenhouse gas" theory, the reason claimed for the current global warming phenomenon
Common sense won't prevail. Headline hunters and fantasists will always be among us. To uphold their arguments, some scientists can always be bought off. Almost as many ethically challenged scientists abound as medical doctors who accept generous payments to offer questionable opinions for trial lawyers to befuddle juries.
Bad News for the Environmental Liberation Front

Exhaustive studies from Duke University debunk the environmentalists' claims that human activities are responsible for global warming. Furthermore, say other scientists, the temperatures to which we're accustomed will return about the first of the next century.

According to two Duke University physicists, Earth's warming for the past two decades are due to solar output.

Many scientists who have taken the opposite view are now concerned about their professional reputations. Many scientists have placed the blame on human cars, industrial activity and other human-causing factors.

Solar surface activity has been particularly active for decades.

We have said this before but we'll repeat it here. SUV's aren't causing global warming. Regions of the earth have increased in average temperatures while other areas have cooled slightly or stayed the same. This isn't to deny that much of Earth is in at least a temporary warming trend. Unusual solar activity is the cause, and the warming isn't just on Earth.

Studies now conclude that the polar ice caps on Mars are melting and seismic activity is taking place on Earth's nearest neighbor. The Martian atmosphere is becoming denser. Michael A. Caplinger, a scientist with Malin Space Science Systems reports that over time these changes could turn Mars into a shirtsleeve environment. The ice "is eroding away at a rapid pace and is going to continue to do that. This is not a seasonal change."

Gullies that didn't exist just three years ago have been photographed by the 8-year-old Mars Global Surveyor.

Astronomers have noted unusual solar activity for some time. An increase of just 0.2% in the solar output could have the same affect as doubling the carbon dioxide in the Earth's atmosphere.

New research on the sun's contribution to global warming is reported in Astronomy & Geophysics. By looking at solar activity over the last 11,000 years, British Antarctic Survey (BAS) astrophysicist, Mark Clilverd, predicts that the sun's contribution to warming the Earth will reduce slightly over the next 100 years.

During the 20th Century just ended, solar flares, sunspots and geomagnetic storms increased in number. The Earth's temperature increased by a global average of 0.7 degrees centigrade.

He says, "This work is speculative and relies on the idea that the sun shows regular cycles of activity on timescales of 10 - 10,000 years and that its heat output and activity are related. But we believe the work is well grounded and the effect of solar activity on Earth's environmental system will not increase in the way it has during the last century. We should take this into account when trying to understand the impact of human activity on our climate system."

Solar activity may reduce in 2100 but Clilverd predicts it will return to its current levels by 2200.

A safe bet: Martians didn't drive SUVs and had no environmental movement.

We have previously reported scientific evidence of many cities throughout the U.S. and many parts of the world have experienced no increase in average temperature over the past 100 years and the temperature on many parts of our globe have actually fallen slightly.

by striker578 at 10:52 AM on 09 Jul 2007
[ Parent ]

Mars and Pluto are warming too

We must all admit that we here on earth DO NOT KNOW enough about our earth to predict what goes on in the enviroment. What we do know is that science shows that when CO goes up the earth cools and when CO goes down then the earth warms up. We all have to understand that plants use CO and emit O2 which then in turn animals use and emit CO.Evidence shows the the atmosphere is aproxomately .02% CO in the 1950's and has risen by .005% in the 2002. There is no evidence that shows the cars or people contribute to warming if anything it's the MASSIVE loss of the rain forest that caused the .005% loss, The global warming issue is a HUGH political endevor that has billions of dollars invested in it. Come on people if there was no money invested it would have died long ago. Government are making hugh money on this issue like the up comming CARBON TAX which is in reality a tax on breathing and policy to control how many people live and how many don't live. Look up "The Great Global Warming Swindle" and "Carbon Tax" on the web. In "The Great Global Warming Swindle" several Top Scientist rebuke the issue and state that the want to have their names removed from the official reports because they were added by fraud by saying that they contributed to the work when they did not work on the project. Watch the UK video titled "The Great Global Warming Swindle" yourself and get informed. Don't be fooled.

by striker578 at 4:00 PM on 12 Jul 2007

Like Said

Massive Dust Storms on Mars
http://greyfalcon.net/mars

The storms are so indense that they have practically decapacitated the Mars Rover.
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/08/14162 ...

by GreyFlcn at 6:18 PM on 12 Jul 2007

Uranus cooling

Apparently Uranus is cooling.

http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~layoung/eprint/ur149/Young20 ...

Uranus may be undergoing internal processes that cause it to warm? Fine - but why hold that for Uranus and not other planets and moons?

Too little information? Fine - why not ascribe that to the other planets and moons?

Too much uncertainty? Same story.

If you're loath to abandon this meme, then at least acknowledge that the science on it is far less studied and certain than AGW theory, with data far less comprehensive than Earth climate science.

by barry schwarz at 11:58 PM on 15 Jun 2008

oops

"Uranus may be undergoing internal processes that cause it to warm?"

Should have been "causing it to cool".

by barry schwarz at 12:00 AM on 16 Jun 2008

ADVERTISING POLICY

You are not logged in. Thus, you cannot post a comment. If you have an account, log in. If you don't have an account, well, by all means go make one! Meet you back here in five.