He wants to send the windmills 5 miles further out, in the interest of the fishermen?  Or, is it b/c at 5 miles further out, he knows the windmills would be beyond the horizon and thus invisible?

And please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these being built on a shoal precisely because it's shallow? What sort of commercial navigation is taking place on a shallow shoal?  The Alliance is grasping at straws, and RFK Jr. seems to be the latest one...

C'mon Bobby! Join us and support this project!

i had a nightmare a few nights ago, where we really had reached the point of no return, and everyone knew it. it warn't purty. i woke up with a sense of relief and a sense of doom.

we need to do everything we can to slow climate change, and do it now. sell your car. take the train instead of flying.

Last week a new petition was published on the nets calling all internet users to sign and by that support the basic goals of Kyoto Protocol to reduce GHG emissions worldwide.

The creation of a global civil echoe to the international negotiations regarding this issue should promote a vaste change in the conception of Climate Change worldwide as country leaders will hopefully understand that their citizens want them to be more active on that matter.

Please join this and sign the petition at:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/179477556

Erez Luke Cohen People of Earth ratifying Kyoto Protocol http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/179477556

By get, I mean understanding that the question is of transcending urgency, that it represents the one overarching global civilizational challenge that humans have ever faced.

Clarifying, he adds:

It's just that when [other environmental] efforts come into conflict with the imperative need to act urgently on global warming, they have to take second place.

Why? Because even if we win every other battle, if we lose this one, it won't make any difference at all.

Summing, he thinks acting urgently on global warming is a necessary condition for success in any of the other environmental "battles" dear to the hearts of environmentalists.  

He may be right.  Yet if he is right, there is nothing about the semantics of his claim that requires there are not other similar necessary conditions.  There may be several, maybe even many, of them.  

We used to think that winning the fight against continual population growth was like what Bill thinks is true of winning the fight against global warming.  Lose that battle, and you'll lose all the rest, we thought.  Hopefully, we were wrong - because if that battle is not already lost, it must be very close to lost.  If we were right and the battle is lost, then we are in rear-guard-actions territory right now.

In general, I think we need a discussion of what the present priorities of the environmental movement should be.  What are the "questions of transcending urgency" - what are the priorities?  What battles are "musts" for us, in order that we can carry on and sensibly engage in other battles?  Perhaps it will turn out that one of the most important environmental battles will be the political battle to remove Republicans from office for a couple of generations.

Perhaps, too, working against species loss is an example of a battle which must be won if various other important battles are to be sensibly engaged in.  After all, even if we win the fight over global warming (as hard as that might be to credit), and badly lose the fight against species loss, we automatically lose other battles as well, e.g., the fight to preserve what wilderness there is left.  

But we need the discussion about priorities, about dependency relationships between the issues - in order to be maximally effective (or, at least, minimally ineffective).        

With the time and money wasted arguing and litigating over this one wind farm....how many times the power capacity could have been installed where there are no NIMBYs?

And given a wind farm many times the size of the Cape project, that could have already been up and running on the northern great plains, how much closer would we be to the meaty 10% level of the exponential growth curve that chatacterizes the adoption of a new technology?

Investment on a national scale, instead of getting tied down in endless bickering over one wind farm.  Rather than fighting a diversionary battle, move forward with the real home front effort to win these energy wars.

10s of thousands of 1000 foot scale wind machines are needed to really win this battle. North Dakota,South Dakota, Montana, Minnesota...  all welcome wind energy development.

If this green energy revolution is really that vital, and I believe it is, build capacity out where it is actually wanted first.  Then as that 10% level is approached and passed the momentum created will get projects going in places like Cape Cod, without blunting the leading edge of this important movement.

Only 3000 of these very large wind machines across the northern great plains would get US to the level of 10% of total electric power generated by wind.

And last but not least of the reasons to at least modify the Cape Wind project as RFK jr suggests?  

The time and money spent in endless litigation  would be better spent on moving the whole project further offshore, possibly on floating platforms.  That would open up the entire coast line of the US to offshore wind, wave, and ocean current power generation.

If NIMBYs can't see them from shore, it makes everything so much easier.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

        Robert Kennedy Jr. has done a disservice to the very interests he claims to protect. There is an important element missing in his commentary: that is, a disclosure. Mr. Kennedy and other members of the Kennedy family own property that overlooks this area. The arguments they use against this project are the same as those used by opponents to action on global warming, whom Mr. Kennedy vigorously opposes. This glaring conflict weakens the political authority the Kennedy family has maintained over many years.

   Mr. Kennedy makes many incorrect assertions.

   The first is this area is a navigational danger. It is a shoal, which is shallow water and is marked as such on the navigational charts.

   The second is that the fishing industry will face losses. While beautiful on the surface Mr. Kennedy ignores the perilous condition of the fisheries, largely due to incompetent state and federal fisheries management, which has allowed the depletion of fish, dwindling numbers of species, and compromised habitat. In fact, the Capewind project creates an opportunity for a marine reserve, which, would serve as a natural marine nursery seeding hundreds of square miles of adjacent area.

      These wind generators produce no pollution. The failed energy policy of The United States forces our exposure to poor air quality from electrical generators like Canal Electric in Sandwich, Massachusetts. The emissions affect the health of all people in the area and those creatures living in the air, on the land, and in the water. In addition, transportation of fuel oil to the Canal Electric facility has resulted in major oil spills. The imposition of meaningless penalties for such incidents allows business interests to consider them a cost of doing business.

  Mr. Kennedy uses data on tourism developed by the Beacon Hill Institute, known for developing positions for the special interests funding the study. Wind installations in Denmark actually increase tourism, which is directly attributable to people including wind farms in their sightseeing plan.

   The most important issue is the nation's thirst for energy will demand oil exploration and production off the coast of New England. Allowing the construction of this facility creates a strong position from which to argue against any drilling. Interestingly, there are no regulations against oil platforms in this area.

   Mr. Kennedy needs to examine the facts before staking his claim. Surely, the view of numerous oil drilling platforms would not be as pleasant as a stand of graceful wind machines.

"It's just that when [other environmental] efforts come into conflict with the imperative need to act urgently on global warming, they have to take second place."

If Bill is right - that everything else has to take a back seat - is the question really that we need more generating capacity, or is it that we need to conserve severely and get local? Living as I do, without electricity and with extremely efficient wood heat, I am notice that most people are thinking more about the former and less about the later. In order to succeed, I think we will need both approaches.

However, in order for the latter approach to succeed, we will need to preserve the ecosystems which can support our less technological existance.

Lets consider food, for example. One of the lowest impact forms of protein is individually harvested wild meat and fish. Certainly, there is not enough for everyone, but if rural people better used these resources sustainably rather than trucking in meat from feedlots (industrial ag is a huge CO2 source!) we'd all be better served.

However, if in our haste to defeat global warming we build windmills where they destroy important wildlife habitat, then local people become that much more dependant on fossil fuels.

Yes, Global Warming should be our priority, but success lies in more than just putting up wind mills - we need a wholistic approach. This is incompatable with the myopic authoritarian statements of Mr. McKibben and others.

P.S. I also think Kennedy's statements reak of entitlement, but its not the real heart of the matter.

• RFK's idea of putting the windfarm farther out at sea is ridiculous
  
• Putting it where proposed is not a great idea, as it may harm fish and birds
  
• Bill McKibben et al are being too myopic

The point about oil platforms is also good, but does not address the reality of flyways or fishing.

Good point moose. This is why RFK is dead wrong on the fish issue, apparently he is pandering to the fishing industry.  

I still think that if the project were located further offshore out of sight, that protection of fisheries would be greater.  Keeping the worst pond net fishing away from coastal waters.

By designing floating platforms that collect wave and ocean current power as well as wind, the extra expense of the platforms and longer power cables could be funded without raising the overall cost per kwh of the energy produced.

If course jd you have a point, why not put human blight in already blighted industrial and farming areas?  

But out of sight, underwater is the industrial fishing blight that we don't see.

 Consider how a barrier of offshore wind, wave, and ocean current platforms would curtail the industrial fishing that is destroying life in the ocean.  It kills 100s of fish for every one fish actually used.

And when a guy like RFK jr who knows this is still pandering to the fishing industry, it is clear that the only way to save ocean life is to build some sort of physical barriers.  There is very little push even by environmental groups to address this hopeless cause.

I think I used your own argument to beat you on this one jd.  Try and get out of this one, if you can!   Hehey.


http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

I hadn't thought that putting the windmills farther offshore might create a barrier capable of keeping big trawlers out while allowing locals to keep fishing while hopefully helping the fish and their habitat recover.

However, I'm still not convinced that this is economically feasable, plus there is still the specter of fuel and chemical leaks from the transformers. Plus, won't the windfarm become an underwater windfarm as sea levels rise from melting ice caps? Better to locate the windfarm on higher ground inland.

Maybe use a portion of the profits to build a fence of nautical "cal-trops" like the one the Sea Sheperd deployed near Newfoundland to keep the trawlers out? ;> A man can dream....

Creating a barrier that prevents industrial fishing would be a good thing, but that still leaves the harm caused by destroying a natural area with a windfarm.  I don't know how else to communicate this, but my spirituality tells me that all natural areas are sacred and that everything, including the water, air, and sky, is alive.  I could thus never support something like this.  I unequivocally oppose all industrial projects in any natural area.

I also strongly disagree with all the hysteria about global warming.  I'm really sick of saying this, but global warming is NOT the most important environmental issue - extinctions and ecosystem destruction are far more destructive - and we should be opposing the cause of air pollution, not its symptom of global warming.

Jeff Hoffman

Panels have already been installed over a few parking lots, they keep the cars cool which uses less air conditioning energy.

Combined with wind and solar installed over already blighted industrial and farm land, maybe no wild natural areas need to be used for power generation.  

I'm not sure how one could come up with these figures, but it might be interesting.  It just might help your argument against large windfarms.

I'm going to try to find some of this data, starting with total roof and parking lot area.  If large windfarms and solar installations are truly unecessary, I would be against building them too.

Maybe some estimate based upon per capita parking and roofspace would produce an accurate figure?

It is hard to beat the synchronicity of floating energy platforms and protection of ocean life from industrial fishing though.  Barriers of this kind will never be built without the energy feature of this concept.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

Perhaps Ross Gelbspan needs to go back to the basics, do the math and advocate for Conservation rather than the Wind Power Industry.

 According to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), if every American household replaced 5 of their current light bulbs with 5 compact fluorescent light bulbs, it would save as much energy as if we took 8 million cars of the roads.

Let's see on one hand, raping the Nantucket Sound for the Wind Industry would result in the equivalent of removing 150,000 cars off our roads; On the other, replacing 5 current light bulbs with 5 compact fluorescent light bulbs would be the equivalent of removing 8 million cars off our roads. Do the math Ross. If we were to replace 5 light bulbs with 5 compact fluorescents we would offset 53 times the amount of carbon dioxide a year in this country... that is 46,640,000 tons as compared to 880,000!

Funny how the simplest things are often the most overlooked.  

Change the bulbs..AND use wind, wave, and solar power.  And go to electric cars and geothermal heat pumps.

Are you against wind power or just this particular project?  Do you favor nuclear and fossil fuel power generation?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

if you guys would put your energy into good use shutting down the corporados instead of trashing each other, maybe we'd have made more progress by now

The NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) problem IS a factor with wind energy.  Another thing I noticed is how some alternative energy folks are in a kind of denial about this.

I'm not sure what the deal is other than most people are selfish and feel that if such a site imposes on them it is not fair and thus they shouldn't have to  be compromised, even if it is for a larger good.

It is quite surprising and illuminating that RFK Jr. has come out in opposition to this project. (Please, let's not quibble about the merits; if monied folks are willing to fund it, it's probably worthwhile -- It's a big wind source near a large population center. QED.).  As a politically savvy Kennedy, he knows the political capital that he is burning up to hold this position.  So why is he doing it?  Because deep down, like all Kennedy's (or rather, like all politicians) they are first and foremost self-serving.  They really aren't interested in helping people, only in providing that illusion to further themselves.  Sure, if they actually can do some good, they will, but when push comes to shove their personal concerns come first.

Also, it doesn't further your point by just yelling that the opposition that they are stupid.  Rather, try to acknowledge their concerns.  One thing I think that many seem to forget is that the windfarms are probably not a forever thing, just something to last 50-100 years or so until something better comes along.  Then they can take them down and the view will be there for their children.  Plus (big plus!) there will also be a world for their children to be in.  

Build plugin hybrids that run on renewable methane. That's all that's needed.

Cape Winds power generators are not "vitally important" in the fight against global warming, as these commentators claim.  Cape Winds, "one of the biggest projects in the world" will at best supply electrical energy for a projected 70% of Nantuckett, Cape Cod, and Martha's Vineyard.  This is not even a drop in a barrel of oil, compared to our energy needs, and hardly the results that will allow us to stop worrying about global warming.

The simple truth is that we must cut our energy use.  Rather than building noisy, ugly, bird-killing giant windmills for a billion dollars, we as a society with dwindling resourses might well consider investing in mass rail transit, and energy saving technology.  Merely lowering the speed limit to 55 mph would save more energy per year than could be produced in ANWR, and save many more lives per year than were killed in the World Trade Towers.  Even Nixon could figure that one out.

Like drilling in ANWR, which is admittedly more about torturing the enviros and milking the taxpayers than solving our energy problems, I have to suspect that building a wind farm off the coast of Cape Cod entails motives beyond satisfying our craving for energy.  And the motives are not pretty.

"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country"

The second is, how many feet above sea level is Cape Cod?

I'd like to applaud Fiver for noting that the Cape Wind project may be motivated for just this division creating reason.  That's quite possible.  Look how the gay-marriage debate played so well in directing the 2004 election.  Well, assuming that, there's a way forward:  build the damn windfarm!

Building it indicates a strength of conviction and an understanding of sacrifice to achieve a larger end.  Not building it means that if someone screams loud enough, it will reach our PC hearts and halt us to inaction.

Fiver's other comments are basically defensive in nature and not logically based (though often heard).  It is true that any one project does not address our energy needs significantly.  But that attitude will keep us from ever getting started in the first place.  We have a HUGE problem!  

The point that one can conserve instead is also misplaced.  As mentioned above, the energy problem is a HUGE problem!  We can't afford either/ors.  We have to do both.

Fiver, I think you are wise to notice that perhaps a trap is set.  Now try to have the wisdom to deny them.  All of these projects will have some environmental downsides.  None of the ones I've read so far (RFK Jr. has to stoop defend fishermen instead of fish, fercrissakes...) are the least bit persuasive in any kind of objective sense.  Fiver, it's kind of crummy they targeted your area, but that's what happened.  But you still have the power to deny them a victory.

Build plugin hybrids that run on renewable methane. That's all that's needed.

My thought when I got no response was that they must get a lot of emails, mine was deleted.

Is there another possibility?

Was this whole project designed to divide the environmental community on energy policy?  Maybe the developer was duped by an offer to finance  this project?

The corporate forces that oppose green energy control the allocation of capital through interlocking board rooms.

The neo-conservatives in control of the bush administratiion spent 200 million on a disinformation  campaign in Iraq.

Is it possible that banks allied with big energy companies would offer millions  (that would never be spent)for a project like this, knowing it will never be built?  they would lose nothing.  But the green energy revolution is left in the dust.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

However, I don't like to see waste and violence done to the earth, in the service of our hunger for power.

I am preparing a longer response to you and Bill McKibben.  Stay tuned.

While on vacation in Ireland just a couple of months ago, I was so happy to see the windmills off the coast.  I couldn't hear them.  They weren't an eyesore.  Ships were going around them.  I have no idea how much energy they produce, but all I could think was, at least they're doing something.  Of course we need to do everything we can in order to conserve, but Americans will not give up their lifestyle, and so we must seize every opportunity to add renewable energy to the mix.  

Fiver is correct: lower your energy use and, I would add, population.  Don't destroy more of the natural world in a never ending search for more energy to power more needless crap.

Jeff Hoffman

No issue needs to take a "back seat" because the fight against global warming is the struggle to save birds, plants, trees, ecosystems and all the rest.

Global warming is global, local, air, land and water all at the same time.

Scott writes at CommonInsight.com.

Well, it might surprise you, but I agree with you.  We have too many people on the planet that are now chasing after too few resources.  I don't doubt that for one minute.

But what I don't understand is why is this project picked to voice this concern?  If it is built or not built, the onslaught of world population increase will still occur.  If it is built, then at least the people of Mass. see the implications of what energy use entails.  Maybe we should all have windmills in our backyards.  Jeff H's comment about pristine nature is confusing to me.  Aren't the fishing boats 'unnatural'?  Why no clamor about them (or the recreational yachts as well, for that matter), as they are cruising about the Cape even now?  I'm sorry, but your comments really don't make any sense to me.

Let's say we (the U.S.) cut our energy use to what? 10 percent of present?  OK, that means we'd use about  10 Quads of energy per year.  That's about 3 TRILLION Megawatt-hours. Now to be fair, that's not all electrical power, but even so, it's reasonable to assume one TRILLION Megawatt-hours would come from wind.  What does that mean?  Well, it means we'd be building wind turbines in the Cape area anyway.

Again, I don't understand why you choose this venue to air your quite valid grievances.  Maybe a better place would be the organized religions (Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Islam, Mormon, etc.) all of whom, to a greater or lesser degree, encourage their followers to increase their numbers by breeding irresponsibly.  Isn't THAT the real issue you are concerned about?  

Build plugin hybrids that run on renewable methane. That's all that's needed.

Maybe if you stop the windmills, your next project should be to reclaim Cape Cod's natural beauty.  Okay whose house is first to come down?

Huh.  Seems to me that ever since the industrial revolution, we've been putting unnatural industrial things in natural areas.  Weren't it all natural before we plunked them factories there?

If you are arguing that keeping "natural areas" pristinely free from human-made objects is more important than reining in our current levels of over-consumption and its attendant effects on the biosphere, you are just plain wrong.  

I'd rather see elegant wind turbines offshore than the brown miasma of pollution that is now visible from so many coasts.  Both are unnatural and human made, but one is a solution, the other a problem.

"Americans are not going to cut back on their consumption.  They are not going to change their lifestyles."  I hear this again and again, from the pages of National Geographic's controversial, "The End of Oil" issue, to this very Gristmill.

People say, "do you want nuclear power plants, or do you want a few dead birds?" Do you want ugly brown scum, or billion-dollar windmills that barely run a few low-power islands?"

I don't think these are fair questions or useful questions.  If we want to do anything--if anything is still possible--to turn down the thermostat on global warming, we must cut back--we must immediately lower speed limits.  We must start getting cars off the road.  Without mass transit, we are going to be in trouble.  

Fantasies that we can continue our wasteful ways are "fueled" by such projects as these windmills.  People say, "it's not an eitheror proposition.  We can build the windmills AND cut back."  I don't believe it, especially when these people continue, "besides, Americans won't cut back!"  That makes me feel doubtful.

 The huge windmills (A billion dollars to build, folks!)   do not represent cutting back.  They represent a dream of a technology that will allow us to continue our wasteful ways.  And they do abuse the environment, through their manufacture, construction, and use.

And all for the power to run a few tiny islands.  It's a bad joke, and I have to ask why we are wasting our time and resourses, when both are so crucial right now.

We shouldn't sacrifice the livelihoods of family fishermen or national landmarks when better locations exist.

Let's push the wind farm further offshore and make it ten times bigger!

Cheney and crew are giggling with glee at the dirty tricking they have acomplished by feeding both sides of the battle over Cape Wind, while the obvious, prtactical  solution that RFK proposed is ignored.

Site them further offshore, out of sight, and off the fishing grounds.   The Norwegians have the technology that is needed and are testing it now.

 Adopting this solution opens up the whole coastline of the USA for wind and wave floating power stations.  The much larger machines possible will more than make up for longer power lines underwater, and bring the green, clean kwhs harvested in at even lower cost.

And the power stations will block foreign pond net fishing fleets that are destroying all life in the ocean from US coastal waters, something our government has not been able to do.

This will save the livelihood of US fishermen and US fisheries.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

How about that for a site?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

Furthermore, consider the essential goal of these wind farms: to give energy and prosperity to the people of the surrounding area.  We must ask, "prosperity in what way?"  We could give them energy, but it might mean taking some other things (food, diversity, peace, economic sustainability...).  Should we really be rushing to solve something that has such a big effect on so many people?

No need to rush, you are probably right that this will not work anyway.  

1000s of huge wind plants and millions of new solar panels, electric cars, heat pumps, and enerfy efficient building are needed to avert almost certain disaster.

I choose to be optimistic and fight on anyway.  

It's a free country though (maybe it still is?), you are free to take the pessimistic view, then all there is to look forward to is death.  Not only for each individual, but for generations to (never) come.

I prefer to fight for the living planet in the short time I have.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

Keep it up at it's present location and the energy company lobbyists will outlaw all offshore wind.

Put Cape Wind on floating platforms further offshore or drop it.  Fighting over this one project is devestating any future for renewable energy.

Meanwhile the northern great plains goes begging for wind power investment dollars.  Tragic.

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

The fate of Cape Wind lies in the hands of Congressional committees. Rep. Don Young (R-AK) has tried to insert an amendment to a Coast Goard bill that would kill Cape Wind. Greenpeace joined with other orgs in lobbying against the amendment and due to big public pressure, the vote was postponed. You should still send the Congressmen a message telling them to reject Young's amendment and keep Cape Wind (and other future projects) alive.

Join with tens of thousands of others, you're email will make a difference.

Amy Gregory GreenpeaceUSA

And that's the rosy picture of the sales brochure. Two-thirds of the time, the turbines will be generating power well below their average rate, so the 24-square-mile power plant would provide the electricity used by 75% of the cape and islands only a third of the time. And even then its output would fluctuate such that continued operation of conventional plants to balance it would be required, seriously diminishing if not cancelling the hoped-for environmental benefit.

The turbines will function only as giant billboards to advertise McKibben et al.'s concern for the planet. If McKibben gets global warming, which I think he does, he should be getting angry about such an obvious boondoggle as industrial wind power that changes nothing.

In order to reap the tremendous benefits of utility-scale renewable energy, the proposed project must be economically viable. This wind farm will be built entirely with private funds, since no government funds are available for construction. The existing government incentives that do exist will be paid to the company only as energy is produced.

Cape Wind will usher in a new era of clean energy to the United States by leading the offshore wind industry.  Already wind farms have been proposed in other places like New York and Texas.  Offshore wind is critically important, especially in the Northeast region, to ensure the success of the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI) which is a cooperative effort by northeastern states to reduce carbon dioxide - the main greenhouse gas that causes global warming.


Amy Gregory GreenpeaceUSA

It is notable that Clarence does not provide an example of existing wind plant causing the reduction of fossil fuel burning or emissions on the grid. The record is that they have no effect.

He emphasizes that the project must be economically viable. That is because the financial benefits are based on raw production, not reduction of other sources. In addition to actual energy, they can sell "green tags," that clever scheme invented by Enron to sell the PR benefit as a separate product.

All this at an acre for every 15 people on the cape and islands: not what most people would call environmentally sound.

BTW are you opposed to solar power too?  Do you prefer "clean" coal,nuclear, or horse and buggy?  

Do you figure global climate change is a hoax or that it's benign?  Maybe you like pumping all the CO2 from clean coal down into old oil wells?

http://amazngdrx.blogharbor.com/blog John Schneider, Northern Wisconsin

Put that sucker on land, land that's already trashed. Stop supporting the theft of the commons and the corporados who profit from it.

I guess that I am saying that these arguments are mostly BS, driven by NIMBY attitudes from douchebags that should probably stop pretending that they want what's best for everyone.